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Post by stanrick on Apr 11, 2015 20:25:34 GMT -5
At the time shana was not a part of a faction the down time did not work like it dose now, she had to start a game a month later with all her wounds and needed thrand to heal them. That is the faction rut she was talking about
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Post by Archmage Vazra on Apr 11, 2015 21:17:49 GMT -5
Anybody can slap a tourniquet on somebody to save their life, but it takes real skill to bend a broken bone, surgically remove debris or stitch shut a gapping wound. I think the same principle should apply to divine magic.
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Post by stanrick on Apr 11, 2015 23:30:00 GMT -5
Agreed, that's why I feel that divine mastery would be a good way to show this.
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Post by Archmage Vazra on Apr 12, 2015 8:03:27 GMT -5
My concern is you're not necessarily "balancing" it by expecting divine spellcasters to take another skill, you're just charging more XP for something they can already do. Expecting more XP commitment really doesn't solve anything, give it a couple events and we'll run into the same problem once everybody has capped out again. Hardly seems fair to them either. Divine Magic is overpowered, and nerfing it kind of sucks for our current Clerics, but if you make the solution "Spend more XP to buy a new skill" then it's functionally like you just arbitrarily deducted however much XP from their account.
Besides, all this talk of specializations and I can't help but feel at certain point we're getting into powergamer territory. Buying skills does not equal roleplay.
Here's my alternative proposition: Instead of all this business with "tagging" wounds or "Divine mastery" arbitrary XP sinks, and instead of reducing the power of the spells, we just restricted the extent to which they can be used.
For example:
Respite is limited in the same fashion as respite, it can only restore the target to 1 Hit, no higher.
Regenerate can only heal one wound per person per event. A bandage or ribbon is placed over the limb and can't be removed until the end of the day or until a healer is visited. While it's in place, no additional wounds can be healed via regenerate.
Or just flat out, the spells remain the same, but you can only receive any particular healing spell once per event, regardless of the caster. ("The body can only be stitched back together so many times,")
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Post by Jopper13 on Apr 12, 2015 15:21:38 GMT -5
I really enjoy the level of brainstorming we are getting with this discussion. Thank you everyone for contributing, and I really do feel like we can find a happy medium. Great job!
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Kitsu
Pack Longfang
Posts: 66
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Post by Kitsu on Apr 14, 2015 15:12:20 GMT -5
On the subject of downtime healing for a faction member: Last year I spent two games with a wound because I couldn't pin Thrand down during time I had available to me to be healed. Is there any documentation on what is apparently a new(ish) downtime mechanic?
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Post by ClypeumLegis on Apr 14, 2015 16:17:10 GMT -5
Yes, I am also highly curious about downtime mechanics as a whole. The mention of them in the rules is very small, and it might be nice to have them elaborated on to a certain degree.
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Post by Jopper13 on Apr 15, 2015 13:41:39 GMT -5
The downtime mechanics exist but are not a resource for players. We do have variables that can influence this and they change based on things, but I can give you a general idea of how it flows so you know the concept. We have a flowchart with this information at Check-in, that the staff utilize to figure out what happens. We are also thinking about adding it in that Divine magic can help other faction members too.
WOUNDS * Wounds not treated in between events have a high chance of becoming infected or worsening. Consult Infection chart and roll for chances (the worse the wound, the worse the infection chance)
Do you have the Healer trade skill or 3rd Level Divine?
If yes, You heal your own wounds for free after each event.
If no, Do you have an active Healer in your faction? (attended last event)
If yes, You heal your wounds for (insert amount here) silver per wound level
If no, Does your faction have a Healer Craftsmen Perk?
If yes, You heal your wounds for (insert higher amount here) silver per wound level
If no,You heal your wounds for (insert highest amount here) silver per wound level
Hits recover after the event as long as wounds were healed in between events, and mana recovers after each event day for free. There is a similar chart for repairing equipment and using blacksmith skills.
What this means is that if you get wounded at an event and you neglect to get it TREATED, there is a high chance of infection. If it was TREATED, then you have the option of having it HEALED in between events. This always costs money, no matter what, and is an abstract cost of herbs, salves, supplies, hearty meals, good rest, etc... The only way to freely heal yourself in between events is to be a Healer yourself or to have Level 3 Divine Magic, drastically cutting down on your downtime costs for healing.
The "tagging" idea I had before for the Regenerate spell was to set up wounds to heal with 0 cost in the Downtime Mechanics, emphasizing the "Divine Neosporin" analogy I gave earlier. I would like to see Divine Magic reduce the healing effectiveness a bit so that they can't remove all wounds, but they could definitely set everything up to be healed much easier in between events. Imagine that placing a "divine bandage" on it allows it to heal much faster normally, but does not force the healing, so it still takes a bit of time. An axe wound to my femur splitting open my thigh healing for free in a matter of days sounds pretty awesome compared to the months of healing, bed rest, and rehabilitation such a wound would actually take. That angle of the healing is what I would like to see, if that makes sense?
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Post by ClypeumLegis on Apr 15, 2015 15:39:54 GMT -5
That makes much more sense now, thanks Ryan. I also think that the idea of divine magic helping Faction members is a logical one, because a Divine user would most likely help his fellow Faction members as well as himself.
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Post by Volrok on Apr 19, 2015 20:11:11 GMT -5
HELLO EVERYBODY! Thought I'd try and throw my two cents in here since I see some ideas that are great, and some ideas that, with a little tweeking, might work.
1) I am unsure how this would work. To me it seems you are saying that gaining the skill for a higher level of spell power takes the same amount of work you would need for the highest levels of the divine mysteries.
2) I feel idea 1 would work here. It would allow for more role play and show that channeling the divine isn't as easy as we would think.
3) The second option would work best here. This could show how the cleric/holy figure, has progressed enough in their skill to encompass another into the spell other than themselves.
4) Same answer as I had for 2.
5) Ditto
6) This I agree with whole heartedly. Revive is a powerful spell that should be considered quite powerful. Being able to pull somebody away from the cold bony fingers of death is, by far, not an easy task to accomplish. I would almost say that making a second level spell may be too little, but I feel third level may be too much.
7) I think making the spell alterable is good. You could be just behind enemy lines, and you don't have that 1 minute of time, so you have to make a choice: Either use up that precious mana and stop this guy from bleeding to death, or keep the mana to help protect yourself and him if needed as you slowly retreat, and risk him dying. I feel the aspect here could open up some good role play situations and make the players pay even closer attention to that mana pool they have. (not saying they don't, just saying it would be fun to see that worry. bwahaha)
8) Would be perfectly okay with that. I would even go as far to say that Flare has even more power at night than in the day due to, being just that, a flare of light.
9) No say on the matter other than maybe to educate people better on it.
10) Since what you are saying is that the effect is too easy, I feel instead of adding another skill that players need to purchase is to incorporate some sort of side effect of the transfer itself. As for what Ryan said about the fatigue occurring after 5 mana being transferred is believable, I think it should be a little more severe. I would say double that amount after every 5 mana is transfered after the first 5. ( 10mana = 2 minutes; 15 mana =4 minutes) The reason I state this is that transferring arcane energy should be a huge physical drain on the one who is transferring it.
11) As one who has played divine characters in many, many different games, this is something I would love to see happen more. Make it a short, but make it sweet if it is to be used in a combat situation (a War Priest of Ulfkell might say for flare, "May the fires of the forge shine!"). For out of combat spells may be lengthened to allow for more roleplay. I will admit it is hard to come up with a prayer longer than a minute, however including props can help lengthen that. Adding onto this Ashlee is right on adding a holy book. a cleric should carry a small version or a whole version of the holy book, that or a type of focus that would allow them to cast prayers on their body (like a totem or holy symbol). Overall though I feel as if that there does need to be a bit more role play in this area, since it feels as if there is a level that most players may have not touched yet.
12) Specialization of schools is indeed a thing, however I feel that can already be done in this system through the use of Lore. If you are speaking of giving your characters a sort of boost in that specific area, it would be tough to do so since the magic system in Last Hope is already very powerful. I feel as if role playing it out would be fine, but using adding skills (Like Drake said) is not going to fix this problem, but rather put cheap bandaid on it for the moment.
Also, Saddie, the Mystic Theurge is a good example for your point of view (loved playing that class too), however, you do forget that Arcane Hierophant (Races of the Wild book) is an exception of this from what I have read and used. It blends the two arts together and creates a unique style of casting. So yes, there are examples of both sides, but I feel as if we should not include specialization skills since Lore is somewhat already there for that. If we so desperately want this though, I would say that the corresponding lore skill would give a bonus to that type of spell, skill, or whatever you're wanting to specialize in.
13) On to the "more difficult to heal than it is to bring back the dying" issue. I understand both sides here, however I feel as if there should be some sort of middle ground that both sides can come to. Sure it is like slapping a band aid on it till someone can actually heal it, but there should be an option, but at a price. As for what kind of price my sick evil mind can come up with, all of them are somewhat unfair? (such as take that wound for yourself through magic so that the other person can not have it). This is really a good thing to look into, however, it should come at some sort of price.
Thanks for reading!
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Faolan
Archons of the Spire
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader?
Posts: 93
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Post by Faolan on Apr 20, 2015 18:24:43 GMT -5
6) This I agree with whole heartedly. Revive is a powerful spell that should be considered quite powerful. Being able to pull somebody away from the cold bony fingers of death is, by far, not an easy task to accomplish. I would almost say that making a second level spell may be too little, but I feel third level may be too much. Considering that Death Bolt is a third level spell for arcane, I would say that making the ability to save someone from death a third level spell for Clerics seems fair
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 12:33:56 GMT -5
We are zeroing in on the changes that 1.4 will bring to Divine Magic. The system that we are going to start play testing today is an attempt to balance the time debt of Divine Healing with that of Trade Skill Healing and First aid while enhancing the "unique feel" of Divine Magic. Feedback on this system would be greatly appreciated. We think that these changes make sense lore wise in that many religious traditions stress self sacrifice for the greater good, and game wise in that it forces consequences for actions (not "miraculous" flashes of light). These changes bring Divine healing slightly behind the time required by a healer if greater meditation is taken (slightly ahead if greater meditation and weaver). At tier 1 this gives a divine healer increased ability to stop death, but does not provide healing potential. At tier 2 the divine healer has the ability to “take on the burdens of others”, and to use their magic to “hold them together”. This allows the divine healer the ability to quickly treat wounds at great personal cost, or to slowly treat wounds in a fashion similar to first aid. At tier 3 the divine healer gains the ability to use their magic to heal wounds and regenerate hit points. This allows the divine healer to act as someone with the Trade Skill Healer but forces them to take on the resting time themselves, this makes divine healing less effective at healing groups but more effective at getting individuals back into the fight. Transcendent Meditation is a new 0 exp Cleric class skill with a prerequisite of Improved Divine Magic. It allows a Divine Healer to heal up to three treated light wounds duringmeditation at the cost of 1 mana and an additional minute of role play on the meditation per wound. The maximum number of wounds that can be healed is the same as the level of meditation of the caster. An interrupted meditation does not heal any wounds. We believe that these changes would provide a marked increase in “burst” healing and a marked decrease in “sustained” healing, this would give magic healing a distinct and separate niche from either first aid or healing. I don’t believe that these changes would change the “power” of divine magic, but would rather severely limit it’s abuse and provide a more collaborative healing environment.
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Post by Valk's Nut on Apr 22, 2015 13:18:02 GMT -5
If the point of this is to balance out to Trade Skill: Healer, why has there not been much discussion on xp costs(though I admit, I may have missed it). In order to become equivalent to the 15 point skill, the divine user has to put a minimum of 40 points into the tree, this is factoring only for the cumulative costs of the requisite skills. At this point the time debt is roughly equivalent assuming treatment. But why not look at the same xp expenditure. For those same 40 points, the Healer in question also buys first aid and improved first aid, and can now do the treatment themself, and has 7 xp left over, for a 0 point skill of his/her choice. This is what brings the healing factors to true equivalency. I understand neither of these characters is well rounded. The question we have to ask, is this, are 7 xp too expensive, or not expensive enough for Flare, Improved Protection, Soul Speak(not for Ulven), Cleanse(corruption), Bless Weapon, Divine Wrath, Divine Barrier, and Sanctuary.
Looking at it this way in Old World, it might be a little powerful in comparison.
In Mardrun, however, you don't get much from Bless Weapon, and Divine Wrath. Divine Barrier is only used when cleansing a corruption site, realistically, and Ulven don't Soul Speak. So you get Flare, Improved Protection, Cleanse(corruption), Sanctuary, and, if you are not Ulven, Soul Speak for 7 xp. Seems about right for me.
I'll admit, at first, I thought it would be a bit harsh, but taking the time to step back and actually go over the math and the balance, it's not far off in Mardrun, for Old World they may need to have adjusted xp costs, and this cost adjustment should affect Old World Divine only.
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Post by Jopper13 on Apr 22, 2015 14:06:59 GMT -5
Oof, no I do not want to see "old world vs new world" divine systems. I would like to keep them the same.
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Post by ClypeumLegis on Apr 22, 2015 14:13:29 GMT -5
I'm loving these changes! The meditation ability was a great idea in particular, and all the other stuff is amazing.
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