Divine Magic Revamp (Version 1.4)

[Jopper13]

There has been some possible ideas floating around about a "Divine Mastery" and "Arcane Mastery" skill that can be taken to upgrade the existing power/effects of their respective schools of magic. I am not sure how to balance it yet.

Or perhaps subschools of magic, or Trades that can upgrade specific talents in magic. for example, taking the Divine Healer trade might be a way to upgrade rejuvenate and regenerate? Maybe Warlock or Battle Mage trade could reduce the cost of offensive spells by 1 mana to a minimum of 1?

I don't mind additional skills to expand on things, but I am a bit hesitant to make something centered around Witch since it already has quite a bit riding on it.... but the overall idea is sound As a springboard for ideas.

[Archmage Vazra]

I don't really see how Witch Magic is relevant to the power of healing spells either.

[Faolan]

Apr 6, 2015 18:20:24 GMT -5 Jopper13 said:

There has been some possible ideas floating around about a "Divine Mastery" and "Arcane Mastery" skill that can be taken to upgrade the existing power/effects of their respective schools of magic. I am not sure how to balance it yet.

Or perhaps subschools of magic, or Trades that can upgrade specific talents in magic. for example, taking the Divine Healer trade might be a way to upgrade rejuvenate and regenerate? Maybe Warlock or Battle Mage trade could reduce the cost of offensive spells by 1 mana to a minimum of 1?

I don't mind additional skills to expand on things, but I am a bit hesitant to make something centered around Witch since it already has quite a bit riding on it.... but the overall idea is sound As a springboard for ideas.

I like idea of being able to invest more into magic for the players that really want to get into that role. I don't know that the power or effects need to be upgraded, but a skill that reduces the mana cost for spells and can only be taken after your third level seems appropriate. I think this would also have to be something that could only be done by a non-witch. That might balance out the extra mana a witch would have available with the reduced spell cost for the person that focused on a single school. The overall power advantage would probably still go to the witch because of their access to a wider variety of spells. 

[stanrick]

No I feel that a witch can do it as well, the balance would come from the fact they are spending way more XP. A fully trained witch that only uses magic skills (no lore, no trade skills, nothing but magic) would cost you 225 xp for 15 skills. If you get 11 xp to start Pluse 5xp for a kick butt bio, it would take 41 games to make that much xp (if all you do for xp is play you pc) say you make all the games but old world, that's about 10 games a year right? So 4 years to make a fully loaded witch. Yes you can master you magic for 31-51 more xp that is completely fair. This also means that say you are a ulven clairic, you top off Divine and master the magic. This means you don't shut off the witch path. That seems fair to me

[Archmage Vazra]

I really like the idea of a skill reducing the cost of spells, but I'm with Jake on this one: I don't see a reason to restrict a witch from taking it.

While it only takes a couple events to master one, it's an absolutely staggering XP dump to even take first level of the other. (It takes awhile, after over a year of playing, Vazra himself will still be 2 short after next event, talk about maddening!) Even once you do, It's not exactly overpowered, and I'd argue it's not the most practical route if we're talking in-game benefit to XP cost.

I am of the opinion that Witch Magic is best precisely the way it is right now: it doesn't close any doors, it doesn't make any existing spells more powerful, and it requires some story reason to take.

[blueruby]

Personally, I disagree. I feel like Witch magic should be excluded from the Mastery side. Sure, it's a significant xp sink, but from a story standpoint, you have likely devoted YEARS of your life researching and practicing this one form of casting, meaning your attention would not able to be as divided as a Witch's needs to be. It would also be a cool way to balance things out for Syndar casters, since they have the detriment of being unable to take Witch. Sure, they get 3 extra mana and regain it faster through meditation, but they were supposed to be the masters of magic for centuries if I remember correctly, and so having monks and witches realistically be significantly stronger (3rd level Syndar Mage with Max Mana Reserves has 24 mana. 3rd level DoG with Max reserves and 1st level Divine--who might not even use divine magic at all--has 25, and can potentially get up to 33). Witches also boast a far wider array of spells than a caster restricted to either side. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that Witches are special enough as it is, and I would like to see it be a viable option (and equally powerful) to spend the time and xp on mastering one school than branching out into two.

[stanrick]

What if a syndar gets magic mastery for free once they buy their 3rd skill? And I don't mean a zero point skill but free like ulven with the poison resistance? This shows the syndars have better magic skills in their disaplin but still will not limit others. Also make it that if a witch takes say divine mastry they can not take arcain mastery, and vice versa. That seems fair and lets people still have options.

[shanaaber]

Here is my thought. There should be away for clerics to close light wounds and heal someone fully. It doesnt make sense story wise or mechanic wise that we can bring people back from death, close gaping life threatening wounds, but suddenly our skills stop and we need to someone else to finish our work. It doesnt make sense that we cant heal a wound before it gets worse. Using the current backwards logic (and I mean backwards as it runs contrary to any other clerical system I have ever dealt with, also works backwards in compared to how one gets injured) Being able to remove that light wound should be the height of your skill as a cleric healer. I am trying to think of away where i doesnt get removed from game because for me it doesnt make sense that we cant. I didnt design my character to be a Band aid. So I came up with what if its a mastery level skill. I originally thought it would only be accessible to those who could use both yes it would cut syndar out but story wise..there magic is waning for reasons unknown so it made sense.

Witch skill is suppose to be a big deal. You can use both forms of magic. I dont feel in game that is given enough respect and attention as it should. I dont necessarily agree with Sadie about it dividing your focus but I do agree with notion that one should have to max out your current type before moving on to the next. Even if Ulven dont see a divide in the magic...its all one thing it would still make sense that the would train what is natural to them first before moving on to the next.

Shana

[Archmage Vazra]

Witch is the exception, not the norm in our game and I think they are pretty special, but I don't think they deserve any additional unique treatment. (either positive or negative). The difficulty to diversify is already represented by the cross-class and cumulative XP penalty, which rightfully also applies to every other combination of skills.

This has never been a game about whose "build" has better "stats" and I would hate to see it sink to that level. If somebody wants to roleplay a battlemage turned witch turned armored knight turned assassin whose quest for power drives them to great heights of achievement but terrible depression characterized by an awful drinking problem, angry fits, and Shiloh-style Mana potion cravings, and they buy every skill along the way, who cares?! why stop them? It's going to be a long journey. If they end up with a couple extra points of mana or hits at the end, more power to them! (They could still get ganked by like 2 decent mordok )

Back to Divine Magic, Shana raises a good point, but I personally think Divine magic should go the route of emergency intervention, saving your life but not necessarily repairing the damage. Like a tourniquet. Long term care would fall into the territory of the Healer.

[stanrick]

I completely forgot about cross classing in my math. So that would add 25 xp to the cost... I really fail to see why they can't master one leg of their skills if not both

[stanrick]

Sorry to double post, the 25 xp for cross classing is if you play divine first (claric) it's only a 15 XP cross for arcain. That means that arcain has 2 more skills then divine. Also maybe you can only take the mastery of the skill you started out with. As in no cross classing for this skill. That would work well because then let's say some one is a fighter, for some reason the want to cross class magic. (Male ulven forsakes Gaia to get divine) because of the way the game goes they should never beable to fully master Magic so this would work in that way too.

[shanaaber]

Wait edited...sorry drake reread what you said, I got it now.

All I am saying i dont want to be a tourniquet or band aid. I want that option to fully heal someone at a game. Even if it an exceptional level skill. It doesnt make sense otherwise for a divine caster not to be able to heal a minor wound when we can fix major ones. In the world we live in where poison and corruption is a thing not to be able to fix a minor wound that can be come infected and turn into a major one is silly. Why would we let it get to that point? There is no promise that there will be healers around and there is no promise there will be Divine casters about either. So taking away our ability to heal the minor wound doesnt make sense.

I fell into the trap once where I was not a member of a faction and I didnt get healed in downtime even though I was Ulven and staying at Onsallas village becuase I was not a member of the faction. I dont want others to fall into the same boat because they aren't members of a faction. People shouldnt have to play the faction game if they dont want to.

Shana

[blueruby]

I am still in favor of excluding those with Witch: "Jack of all Trades, Master of None", as the saying goes.

I'm going to use Shiloh as an example: She is a highly skilled mage, almost at the peak of arcane power (Arcane 1-3, 2 levels of Mana Reserves, and Lore: Ritual). Sure, she has a bit more to learn, but as far as spells she knows and how to efficiently cast them, there's not much more to know. She can't really learn any more about Arcane magic, and if she wanted to grow more powerful, she would have to branch off into Witch magic, which she has no interest in doing, and no reason to do. If I spent the same time and energy delving deeper into the secrets of Arcane magic as I would have to spend learning how to cross that bridge into Divine, then learning all the different spells, I should realistically pick up a few new tricks. Essentially, I would be choosing to forego the versatility of the Witch for the specialization of Arcane Mastery.

I know they are different systems, but look at the casters of DnD: Clerics and Wizards can be incredibly powerful on their own, especially when they specialize and hit 20th level. There's also the option to branch off into Mystic Theurge or another similar prestige class. They continue to gain power and knowledge in both schools, but will never be able to rain fire from the heavens like a straight wizard or court the favor of their god like a straight cleric.

If clerics could specialize in Healing for their mastery and were then allowed to remove light wounds, I would be all for that. They have spent the time and energy learning how to fully close those wounds, and would realistically learn how to do so, much as a healer who has been trained for years knows how to set bones and stitch gashes. As for why they can't heal light wounds away, but can bring people back from Dying, look at venomous snakes: the babies are often more dangerous than the adults because they have not yet learned to control their venom glands, and tend to use way too much venom on their foes. In this way, Clerics have not yet learned to focus their divine energy enough to safely seal major wounds, but can confidently pour magic into their target to keep them alive, hopefully long enough to get things fixed. Rejuvenate shows a greater degree of control, but they have not yet learned to harness enough mana to heal wounds while still focusing it on a particular area (Like a broken arm), so they grab a much smaller thread of mana, which will be far easier to manipulate.

For the record, factions don't really fix everything for free. If your group has spent the time, xp, silver, and supplies to train blacksmiths and healers, you get a discounted rate on those services, and are able to pay for those services whether or not you are a part of a faction. Yes, it gets expensive to continually repair armor and hits without being in a faction, but try comparing the costs of fixing your car if your cousin is a mechanic, rather than taking it to a shop.

[Archmage Vazra]

You know, I'll be honest, I'm sort of against the idea of a "Mastery" skill entirely, and I say that as someone who would directly benefit from the inclusion of such a skill. Magic seems powerful enough as it is. Instead, I think it would however be nice to see skills (particularly trades) that expand on it's versatility, (as weaver did)

Perhaps if focusing was an option, it wouldn't necessarily prohibit you from taking the other entirely, but would restrict how far you can delve into it. I'm still not really for it. I imagine a human witch for example is just somebody who got so good at manipulating magic one way, that they could reproduce the effects of the other school. Say you started Arcane, gaining divine doesn't mean you "found religion" down the road, it just means you've master weaving Arcane mana to such an extent you can use it to heal.

[Jopper13]

One part of this conversation that I see brought up is the "Why can we stop being from dying buy not heal wounds?"

I would like to take this opportunity to explain why, both in-game and out-of-game.

In Game, it is far easier to save someones life than to heal their wounds. This goes for game world and real world. If I take a bullet wound to the calf, someone with basic first aid will be able to tie a bandage on it and maybe tourniquet my leg so that it doesn't continue to bleed and put my life in danger. The same goes with someone who has major wounds; sometimes a simple appliance of pressure could keep someone's gut wound from killing them. The tricky part is when it comes to actually healing the wounds... a doctor has to go in and remove the bullet in my leg before it can heal and then stitch me up, or a surgeon is going to have to work on repairing the tissue damage, fix the wound, and get it back on track to heal over time. Stopping someone from flat-out dying is the easy part; keeping them alive and actually getting them lined up to heal from it is the trickier part. Our divine magic is similar to this... when you open a conduit of energy with your patient and weave mana into a spell that can help them, it is much easier to stop blood loss from killing someone or stabilize their injuries, or potentially treat a wound enough that it won't bleed further or impair someone... but to actually set the bones, clean the tissue, cleanse the dirt, close the wounds, and prepare it for proper healing, that is where it gets trickier and is more difficult.

Out of Game, the reason why the ability to save someone's life is easier than healing their scratches is because of the balancing act and how it accompanies our wounding system. Combat in our game is less lethal due to the multiple levels of spells, armor, hits, and then even levels of wounds. This means that clerics are able to help at the most extreme end of the spectrum first (Stabilize the dying, or Revive the dying) which means the most basic cleric can pull someone back from the cusp of death and keep people from dying. This makes initial clerics more of like "divine crash carts/defibrillators", allowing them not to keep pumping fighters into the fray but instead to just keep people alive. As the cleric's skill progresses and their power expands, they become more and more able to treat or heal wounds of smaller caliber, allowing them to actually keep fighters up and in the fight, making their direct impact on a battle grow more and more powerful. Saving a dying ally who is out of the fight doesn't nearly have the same impact on combat as treating a wound, healing it to a lesser level, and quickly healing the bruises of a fighter and sending them back into a fight. The more influential the cleric is on combat, the more powerful their level must be.

Our divine system was created this way for a reason, as we wanted to make clerics able to save the lives of their allies but not be such a crucial part of combat that their sole presence was a game-changer. So far I feel it works out very well, and I kind of fear the increased lethality if we allowed low level clerics the ability to heal basic scratches first but then had to stand by and watch their friends die because they can't stop it. Another angle, is that I mimicked real world combat medics during the creation of this process (in an obscure/abstract way, I know) but the goal was to create the "I can't sew you up right now on the battle field, but I can quick-clot your wounds and save your life" aspect. To me, this also fits our game world... wounds still hurt and take time to heal, no matter what kind of fancy mumbo-jumbo we use on it.

It also further expands the whole "It is far easier to destroy than it is to create/rebuild aspect" which I enjoy as an undertone to the story of Last Hope.

Great discussion, I am getting lots of ideas!

EDIT: And to clarify, I am not sure what the "didn't have a faction rut" entirely means, because everyone has access to the Downtime Mechanics in between events, and being attached to a faction with those resources only gives a discount... the easier way to heal yourself or fix your equipment is to take trade skills or take divine magic, which actually further expands on the power/versatility of Divine Magic's influence. Third level clerics heal their wounds for free during downtime mechanics in between events, and blacksmiths repair their equipment for free.