RULES: version 1.3 to 1.4

[Jopper13]

Oh no we aren't getting rid of arcane spells. Divine is going to be tweaked more this round than arcane, but they are both going to be very similar.

I think we may have found a good balance for divine that needs some testing and really, mages are just losing a handful of class skills to make them more warrior oriented.

Keep in mind we are NOT gutting magic.

And yes, Jake, the ciphers are coming into the game and I'm excited. Divine will get creed requirements, such as coming up with prayers and verses from holy books centered around your religion. We have a few ideas on how to expand the requirements to use magic, not necessarily just decreasing their use... if someone puts a ton of effort into being a war mage, I am fine... I just don't want magic used "just cause".

[ClypeumLegis]

Ok THANK YOU, you have averted my heart attack!!=)

[Valk's Nut]

I am not sure particular puzzles are the right way to limit the "just cuz" mentality of taking skills. A Mage class should be able to take arcane skills without testing or puzzles, a rogue should be able to pick up traps and devices, a warrior cleave and a cleric divine. These are just examples, but class skills should, in my opinion be able to be taken with no extra requirements. A rogue taking improved shield, or a cleric taking traps and devices however should have to have some justification in character. Either work on it in game, or have some /existing/ story that shows your character could feasibly have background. These would be subject to staff/heralds approval. For example, before I take improved shield with Ranmir, a rogue, I plan on doing quite a bit of sparring with my new smallish shield, working to my bigger one(hopefully I can get them done for May). I'm a proponent of taking skills when they bloody make sense, not cuz I've got co to burn, and I get a good bang for my buck. It seems to me to be an easy fix to some of the issues.

[Valk's Nut]

Also, got distracted by other comments, I think full draw for archery should be kept at twenty feet. Mainly I feel this because the human brain does weird things with distance on the horizontal, what one person thinks is twenty feet on the fly, might be another persons fifteen or twenty-five. It's better to fight with caution then to have someone charging in get nailed at full draw at ten feet in the face.

[Archmage Vazra]

(Ryan) "I wanted to explain here something that was important to me that Last Hope was founded on, and that is the intent of a lower fantasy setting. This does not necessarily mean that magic is being downplayed, but that it's commonplace/overuse was never quite intended to be where it is today.

In a larp, it can be difficult to really portray some of the magical effects that could exist in the game. One way to show that is to limit it or change it so the effects fit the lore and also fit the immersion, with an effect that isn't jarringly difficult to produce.

Take a look at Lord of the Rings for example, or Game of Thrones. Both involve magic but it's use is not thrown around willy nilly. Casting magic is a big deal, and usually comes at a price. That was always the intent of Last Hope's magic system... to make casting magic kind of a big deal. When a cleric uses magic to close wounds or a mage sends enemies flying with push spells, that is not commonplace.... that is amazing, that is wondrous... And it should be a bit more rare."

I 100% want to see Magic come to this. Truth be told, I have no issue with there being greater restrictions on who can take magic and when. I maintain the belief that the problem is the accessibility of magic, not the strength of it.

I can't help but feel Mages are going in the exact opposite direction of that vision. I want to do everything we can to prevent min/maxing or blatantly overpowered magic. However I don't want to see Mages take after this recent fantasy archetype of squishy, dorky aristocrats. Using the Lord of the Rings example: Remember Gandalf? He was a dirty vagabond who hardly cast two spells the entire series. Yet he was feared and respected.

Truth be told, if the solution is to make Magic less a combat oriented skill, I for one would be entirely happy. But as of right now the opportunities to use Magic in that way are few and far between. The examples of a Mage using magic to figure out a puzzle, or dig into lore-those situations just doesn't exist. I understand player-driven plot, and I think I for one try to make the most of it, but I feel many players are fumbling in the dark on these matters, and we still need something to work with. At the end of the day if the only problem Mages are given to solve is combat, it's no wonder that's their biggest concern. I think it would really help shift the focus if we were challenged to use magic in a non-combat capacity far more often. After all, we can improvise spells all day, but to what end?

I'm beginning to think the issue with Magic isn't a matter of XP or Balancing Spells, it's a matter of attitude. The mood has turned power gamey and is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Somewhere along the we've lost sight of something. My final suggestion on this subject (as I feel it's hijacked the 1.4 discussion entirely) is to change as little as possible in the rules themselves, make necessary tweaks to Divine magic and some odd wording. Then continue to address any further issues in-game. (for example: the puzzle scrolls to limit accessibility to magic, and challenging existent Mages to explore new uses for Magic beyond combat.)

[Jopper13]

Arcane hasn't gotten much... that is true. We have some ideas floating around, and honestly some if the weaver ideas were to enhance arcane too. Any other ideas on Arcane? We aren't changing a ton, mainly just class/cross class skills, but I was just talking to Jeff about how it feels like I missed something with arcane. And it doesn't mean *more* magic but just different uses or effects.

Any ideas?

[Valk's Nut]

I don't see the need for puzzles and such, but I do see the need for justification through role play. I don't mean just on magic, but all cross class skills. I would even suggest it for class skills, but not necessarily require it.

[Faolan]

I guess I'm seeing different arguments going on (here and elsewhere):
1) we don't necessarily want mages going around the battlefield just blowing stuff up. We want more mages to take puzzles and lore.
2) Divine and Arcane are "opposites": Divine puts people back together, while Arcane blows stuff up.

And I guess putting those together here: Divine does seem really focused on putting people back together, but their few utility spells (Soul Speak and Bless Weapon (cleanse is utility and not healing?)) aren't total focused on that. On the other hand, Arcane's utility spells (stun/ice bolt and recall?) are still pointing mages towards offence. I've heard a few strategies that involve using stun/ice bolt just to buy time to get off a death bolt. If we don't want to take away from the offence feel of Arcane but want them to do other stuff as well, could we look at reworking or expanding the utility spells? Do we really need the striking bolt series? I guess the other option would be Trade Skills. Weaver is awesome, but seems like a pretty high bar to reach (a lot of pre-req skills to where the actual cost is really 20xp) for being the only "Arcane"/magic trade. That kind of makes sense when magic is supposed to be something special. It would make more sense to me that magic itself is something difficult to get into, but when you're in you should have options to branch into. I was kind of thinking along the lines of splitting weaver (has anyone taken it yet?) into like 2 10xp trades. One focused on the Mana Stones and Divination type stuff, and the other focused on the Spell Barrier side. That could open it up so that someone could focus on the puzzles and lore without being tied into more combat oriented abilities as well. If we can't split Weaver, would a "lower level" of it be possible? A Trade Skill with the Weaver's divination but it takes longer and you don't have to option to retry (sounds kind of like Bard)?

[Archmage Vazra]

I agree, there isn't much need for new spells. I think it would be really helpful to have more clear guidelines for improvised magic, including a few more examples, and then provide more in-game events challenging us to use magic in that non-combat capacity. If new spells were on the table, I think it would be interesting to see more "Ritual" type spells with significantly longer casting times and potentially requiring multiple casters.

So, I just noticed something big for the "Magic with a shield" and "defending yourself with a spell primed" debates. "Flare" very specifically states you can "actively use a shield" in your free hand while it is primed. I see no reason this precedence shouldn't be applied to all spells. I'm amending my stance on the issue accordingly, a trained mage should be able to ward of attackers while carrying a primed spell so long as the hand they are using is not the one carrying a spell. The size of the shield I suppose could still be limited however.

After some play testing yesterday, I must continue to voice concern regarding amendment to the channeling of Mana. (and apologize if my tone appeared disgruntled) I understand these "Changes" are actually clear enforcement of the original intent of the rules but overall it continues to erodes the capacity for Arcane mages ability to reliably defend themselves. I understand magic is intended to be a little unwieldy, but this is already well the case. I'm not pushing for any additional allowances be made for Mages, I just hope the system remains the same in 1.4 as it has presently been enforced.

I really like the new Javelin rules we've been play testing, it's always struck me as odd that carrying around this massive weapon gave you no benefit over a simple rock. It also provides a "Mundane" way to wear down shields from a distance and is kept in check by the tip only rule, which really only makes sense and prevents someone from deliberately throwing a Javelin wonky to make it harder to avoid.

Still not terribly fond of incidental hand shots after testing, seems difficult to judge clean hits when both players are swinging away.

[blueruby]

Apr 23, 2015 23:34:58 GMT -5 Archmage Vazra said:

I agree, there isn't much need for new spells. I think it would be really helpful to have more clear guidelines for improvised magic, including a few more examples, and then provide more in-game events challenging us to use magic in that non-combat capacity. If new spells were on the table, I think it would be interesting to see more "Ritual" type spells with significantly longer casting times and potentially requiring multiple casters.

So, I just noticed something big for the "Magic with a shield" and "defending yourself with a spell primed" debates. "Flare" very specifically states you can "actively use a shield" in your free hand while it is primed. I see no reason this precedence shouldn't be applied to all spells. I'm amending my stance on the issue accordingly, a trained mage should be able to ward of attackers while carrying a primed spell so long as the hand they are using is not the one carrying a spell. The size of the shield I suppose could still be limited however.

After some play testing yesterday, I must continue to voice concern regarding amendment to the channeling of Mana. (and apologize if my tone appeared disgruntled) I understand these "Changes" are actually clear enforcement of the original intent of the rules but overall it continues to erodes the capacity for Arcane mages ability to reliably defend themselves. I understand magic is intended to be a little unwieldy, but this is already well the case. I'm not pushing for any additional allowances be made for Mages, I just hope the system remains the same in 1.4 as it has presently been enforced.

I really like the new Javelin rules we've been play testing, it's always struck me as odd that carrying around this massive weapon gave you no benefit over a simple rock. It also provides a "Mundane" way to wear down shields from a distance and is kept in check by the tip only rule, which really only makes sense and prevents someone from deliberately throwing a Javelin wonky to make it harder to avoid.

Still not terribly fond of incidental hand shots after testing, seems difficult to judge clean hits when both players are swinging away.

True, but look at Push. Even a 3rd level Mage can't prime a Push spell, despite it being one of (if not *the*) first spell they learn to cast. It is the only spell that affects an enemy in combat that cannot be primed. Some spells are unique like that, and address that uniqueness in their description. In my opinion, the fact that Flare specifically mentions that you may use it with a shield makes an even stronger case for why shields cannot be used with other spells.

After some play testing yesterday, I must continue to voice concern regarding amendment to the channeling of Mana. (and apologize if my tone appeared disgruntled) I understand these "Changes" are actually clear enforcement of the original intent of the rules but overall it continues to erodes the capacity for Arcane mages ability to reliably defend themselves. I understand magic is intended to be a little unwieldy, but this is already well the case. I'm not pushing for any additional allowances be made for Mages, I just hope the system remains the same in 1.4 as it has presently been enforced.

The proper channeling of mana is a form of training for the mage, just like swinging a sword is practice for a fighter. The only real difference is that the mage is limited on how many attacks they can throw, and their power is significantly greater because of that. Let's say a fighter wants to break a shield: They need to have the proper weapon and training, get close enough to the enemy to hit, wind up (leaving themselves wide open), then manage to land a huge, over-exaggerated blow on the opponent's shield anywhere from 2-8 times, depending on the shield and opponent. If the opponent dodges, takes the hit themselves, or blocks with a weapon, the attack was made far less effective than originally intended. All this, including leaving themselves open to arrows (Cleavers can only use strap bucklers, and most of them don't), is incredibly underwhelming when you consider that a mage can stand behind a shield wall, spend all day casting 3 mana, walk close enough to an opponent to throw a bag at them, and if they connect with ANYTHING (garb, weapons, shield, body, etc.), the opponent's shield breaks and they stagger, no questions asked. Sure, the mage is technically open to arrows during this time as well, but considering the ability to cast up to two layers of Mage Armor on themselves by this point, that's two arrows or attacks that need to damage the mage before they take damage, and even then, an attack isn't guaranteed to make a mage drop the spell. Magic is incredibly powerful, so I personally feel that making sure that it is role-played properly is more than fair.

[Jopper13]

In the upcoming training videos, we will be examining and explaining magic better.

Sadie is correct, the manual dexterity needed to effectively move the mana bands to the other wrist takes practice. As Laertes, I can easily move mana when I cast. As Brother Ixion at Old World, it is super difficult and I have to pay attention to it because of my gloves and gauntlets. This is a form of training that mages will have to do, and yes that second it takes to wind it around your wrist could matter in combat.

Magic is immensely powerful in our system so that is part of the balancing, that and the dedication to the craft in the form of exp. Keep in mind that warriors and Clerics have almost no defense to arcane spells, making arcane casters very poweful. As I have said previously this system is not meant to be fair, it is meant to be balanced for the game world and the lore, so warriors do not need to have defenses against magic... but this also means that magic does not need to be easy or recovered from quickly.

We voted on the shields and magic stuff, and we decided that it will follow the same rules as the cleaving/archery rules... you can use a buckler in conjunction with it, but the larger shields will most likely not be able to be used with it. We were able to break the game way too easily with that combo.

As for improv magic, it all depends on the situation... Mages have been able to disable locks, find the answers to puzzles, scry the location of things, etc... it all depends on what pops up at an event. It is hard to detail these out because it is so circumstantial. More defined uses like this fall into the Weaver trade or more complex skills regarding magic.

We initially were going to split weaver into different forms (Enchanter, Seer, Weaver) and they would focus on different areas. It starts to get wonky, so we combined them to show the full abilities of a weaver. This could still be a possibility, through the tradeskills.

I was actually pondering a potential change to some spells to keep them very useful but less devastating... see below.

Shatter Bolt - change to 2 mana, does 2 points of damage to a shield
when it hits a target instead of instantly destroying the shield. Still very effective, but tones down the ability to remove the most important defensive tool in combat. I like the simplicity of shatter bolt currently, but it is pretty powerful... but does this tone it down too much or does the thought of "something different than 1 point of damage" seem too complicated?

Acid Bolt - Keep the same mana, and instead of simply removing all armor it removes 10 points of armor. This would melt anything of Light or Medium but a layered or heavy armor opponent would not be screwed entirely but still heavily affected. Heavier armors take a lot of money, training, and effort to acquire and use and to completely render it useless in a single shot seems a bit much.

Death Bolt - I both love and hate this spell. It is the only single shot effect/attack/spell in the game. With an expensive cost it should do a lot, but the instant mortal is pretty powerful. I am not sure how to tone it down much without nerfing it too heavily, but I would like to see it change possibly to inflicting a Light Wound when it strikes a target and then progress to a mortal wound 10-15 seconds later... Giving the target a slight chance to lash out against their opponents or to get a bit away and back to allis but the end result is the same.

Thoughts?

[Archmage Vazra]

I can't help but think of the saying "Don't fix what isn't broken." and none of this seems broken.

Is doing requiring a full rotation going to break magic? No. I simply caution that these little things can really add up. The warrior charging you down isn't going to take the full second to roleplay, most players are just going to swing wildly with their axe that isn't going to fizzle. You can only balance things by saying "Oh, if you practice enough..." so many times. Not to be facetious, but daggers are overpowered too... if wielded by Batman.

Look, I'm not denying the Arcane spells are powerful but they certainly are not problematically so. Compare Arcane spells to Archery, they just don't measure up. Arrows drop light wounds, are far more difficult to dodge, have vastly superior range, cost no XP, and you can carry unlimited barring how much money you're willing to spend. (Which seems an unacceptable way to balance something) Arrows also don't "fizzle".

As for the spells:

It sucks getting hit by an Acid Bolt or a Shatter Bolt while you're in a shield wall, but that's really the only place Arcane Magic shines, and mind you, that's with an ample number body guards. Outside a line battle, they really just are not a threat in any capacity. Besides, Weaver now offers a defense there, why not give the Trade skills a market? I'm actually not entirely opposed to adjusting these spells, if the Mage's capacity for self-defense was improved to compensate. (I've always felt it would be more appropriate if the warrior excelled on the battlefield and the mage being an individual, not the other way around. That's just me though )

The thing is Death Bolt is an incredibly scary, but ultimately really overrated spell, and I strongly oppose changes here. I got Khulgar last March by hiding in a nearby building, channeling the mana without anybody's knowledge and then popping out to throw it while he was distracted fighting other opponent entirely. I just can't imagine that spell working in circumstances anything short of that contrived, it almost sounds made up! Evaluating it's practicality, this spell is on par with a Willy Coyote scheme for killing somebody. Yeah, it's pretty terrifying that it goes straight to Mortal, but frankly I don't care who you are, or who you're fighting, it's just easier to beat somebody the old fashion way then to actually land one of these.

The Arcane side of 1.3 in my opinion had nothing wrong with it. I maintain that the rules regarding the casting of magic, and the Arcane spells should remain as enforced prior to this point. Even if that was not the original intent of the wording, magic as it was enforced had a good way of being unwieldy and requiring some skill to use, without straying to the extreme of total impracticality.

[Jopper13]

We aren't looking at gutting arcane, just looking at it for possible tweaks if needed. Keep in mind that this isn't just for the PCs... mordok, undead, enemies, etc all get access to these spells and abilities too. So if a PC gets a lucky shot on a bandit NPC and takes him out with a death bolt, that is awesome... but when a mordok shaman takes someone out with a death bolt, that severely hinders the PC from being able to do much. Spells are powerful and if fielded against the PC group it can do a lot of damage. There have been several events where players have commented that the NPCs were "too powerful" when a single spellcaster was given to their group... if magic is balanced out, why is there a perspective like that? Also, say tensions rise between several player groups in the game and they end up fighting each other... do you really want one-shot abilities like death bolt to be used in a PVP environment?
These are more brain-stormy themed questions, mainly to show some of the angles that we look at when we try to see how spells influence a game.

I honestly like where arcane is, but wish it was slightly less "impactful". I don't like any ability that completely nullifies another person or thing, but we have minor versions of this already. Arrows can disable limbs, nullifying a cleaver. Spells can blow up shields, nullifying a shield wall. Protection auras absorb arrows, nullifying an archer. First aid and mend can bring back equipment and treat wounds, nullifying things that dish out damage. The best option really is teamwork and a well rounded group, much like real life.

Arcane is getting a quick look over to see if something really pops out at us, but honestly I think it is balanced. We've gotten the most concern over death bolt simply because it is the only 1-shot in the entire system. We added Improved Push and Improved Mage Armor to the Arcane list last time, drastically improving a 3rd level mages survivability, and that seems to have helped the mages survive a bit.

Drake, I wanted to expand a bit on your "magic as it was enforced" angle. I guess I am not sure what that means? For example, I recently corrected you on your use of the mana bands, really explaining what was needed to "roll them" from one wrist to another. To most players we setup at practice to use rubber bands, this method was what they were taught and what most are doing in the game. It is the enforced way of using the bands, because it does force you to take a split second to think about how to move your mana. Going too fast can break the bands (which we do not replace if you do) or make you fumble, which means care needs to be used. This is how magic has been since Day 1, and most people became really careful with the rubber bands because they do tend to be a bit fragile, which was the point of the casting system. Last Hope almost had a hand signal/hand motion based system where every spell needed a memorized set of gestures (in case you have ever seen the Naruto anime series, how they do their special attacks is an example) and that would have been much much more difficult to do. We are probably adding in a clause to the rules that states that if you break a rubber band/mana band, then you "lose that mana potential to the mana stream" until you rest again, basically showing that not taking your time to properly weave mana is finicky and you can lose your ability to retain that mana within your body. The mechanic basically translates to "If you can't carefully cast your mana and break your bands, you lose that mana until the next day". Only recently has there been a larger emphasis on hair ties for magic, for almost 3 years a very large majority of the players in the game just used rubber bands. It states in the rules that you have to use rubber bands, which we have been lenient on enforcing. I am in favor of it because it is cheap and the rubber bands that I have like 5,000 of are nice and small, and you can fit a lot of them on your hand without it getting ridiculous. They work, they work well, and they have great stretch for the required motion of the casting required. We voted and it seems like the majority of us don't mind seeing hair ties or other bands, as long as the motion to cast is explained, trained, and enforced.

I actually really enjoy this discussion and I wish more of the player base would get involved. We have a lot of spellcasters in the game that I am sure have an opinion one way or another, and everyone is welcome to add to the discussion. We have to make a ruling one way or another on things, but really discussing this stuff out really helps this game.

I have been trying to come up with more ideas for arcane and I am not sure what else to do... since so much of the utility side is covered with Divine in healing and wounds and death and some of the high level stuff like divination and enchantment is accessed via trades, I don't know what else to do for Arcane.

Perhaps a way to "lock" pouches or containers with magic, needing a special tag or ribbon that must be used to show it has been locked?

Or what if Arcane casters can "cleanse" a disease or poison by burning the infected area, causing wounds but potentially saving lives?

Or what if Arcane casters can also do some sort of "sanctuary" like effect, like "Stasis" or something, that allows them to channel energy around them and protect them?

Or how about a "divine barrier" like effect that Arcane casters can do that nullifies magic being thrown into it, perhaps a way to protect your shield walls from the destructive forces of other magic users?

Or how about an ability that allows a mage to touch an allies shoulder, and extending their mage armor to their allie to absorb spells? Imagine an ally with a shield who is being "supported" by an arcane mage, allowing the spell to "arc" through the targeted player and into the mage, utilizing their mage armor?

Could there potentially be ways to expand on Arcane magics effects against other magic users... being more "magic vs magic"?

Are these just crazy ideas that don't make sense? :-P I think the best option for now is to make minor tweaks to the rules for 1.4, then revisit this topic with more time and discussion for 1.5. I think our backs are up against the wall for any large changes to arcane, and I don't want to make knee jerk reactions in either direction for it.

[Jopper13]

By the way everyeone, we are doing a cut off of Wednesday night, 4/29, to submit your ideas for rules changes. After that, we are locking them in and moving forward so we can get this project complete.

[ClypeumLegis]

I like those Arcane ideas, especially the magic lock one. Maybe it could be called Ward or something? Anyway, I think that perhaps at practice or before an event, we do sort of a universal review of how to cast Mana. I myself am slightly doubtful of if I'm doing it correctly, and with all the discussion that has been going on with Mana, a little repass of that might help out. I will also extend a cautionary word about making Arcane spells that are similar to Divine spells. What I see may not happen, but I can see some problems resulting from people perhaps losing interest in Divine because "Arcane's got a lot of the same stuff" or something like that. Again, that might not happen, but it's something that could. I did have an idea about something more "magic vs magic" ish, and I included it with my Divine magic audit a while back.
The idea would be: a spell, which I called Nullify, that when thrown as a spell bag eliminated a casters casting ability for two minutes. After that, they would be fine. I don't know if that was what you might have been going for, but these are my thoughts on that matter.