Faolan
Archons of the Spire
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader?
Posts: 93
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Post by Faolan on Mar 13, 2015 20:33:17 GMT -5
I like Drake's idea with storing a spell in a staff of some sort. I think it should be reserved for at least the 2nd level of Arcane, if not the third. And maybe have it cost just a bit extra to store a spell.
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Kitsu
Pack Longfang
Posts: 66
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Post by Kitsu on Mar 14, 2015 9:24:41 GMT -5
On rubber bands vs hair bands/etc - I was actually planning to make something of my own using a type of elasticized ribbon produced for sewing because when it comes to both rubber bands and hair ties I either have to pick between bands that fall off if I'm not careful or ones that cut off my circulation (the curse of having been born long and lanky). I've bough a bunch of different rubber bands trying to find something that was actually safe and haven't had any luck. This was along the lines of what I was thinking, but if the little knotted end wasn't acceptable I would be willing to break out the sewing machine and make them without the knotty bit... I just want something that's not constantly squeezing and is actually comfortable to wear, not to cheat... On Primed-spell fighting - I don't mind it as it's own skill, but as Drake mentioned it should be addressed against the other rules and if it creates a "You are no longer effected by the speed limitation" situation, that should be clearly stipulated in the rule. and if it does not make you immune to that stipulation, that should be clarified by the skill entry. So that there is no question about how it works. On stored spells - Definitely an interesting concept. I like the idea. Might need some consideration for limitations (i.e.: how many spells a person can store per object, and total, etc)
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Faolan
Archons of the Spire
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader?
Posts: 93
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Post by Faolan on Mar 15, 2015 6:49:51 GMT -5
I believe Drake and I were just thinking it would be storing a single spell in a single single object (the person's own staff or such). This would not be something that you could store a spell in an object and then someone else is able to use that stored spell (That kind of ability would fall to a weaver). I hadn't considered a limit on the total that a person could store across multiple objects, but I imagine the person's limited amount of mana and the fact that they could not get back any of the mana (meditation, transfer, etc...) used to store said spell until that spell is used would create its own limit on the total.
We could use like a colored cloth to distinguish what spell is stored in an object/staff
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Post by Archmage Vazra on Mar 15, 2015 10:08:16 GMT -5
In regards to Mana Bands, I've actually never had a rubber band break on me, only hair ties.
The spell storing would be limited to the original caster, one item, and only a single spell. The idea isn't to create more powerful characters or make magic more accessible, but to give existing casters more opportunities to use their magic. I like the idea of a strip of colored fabric representing what spell is stored. Again though, I would insist it be limited to low level magic.
Another suggestion, and this is just something I've been considering for awhile: it seems magic is oddly commonplace due to it's accessibility and the extent to which any character can benefit from "Mage Armor". What if alongside moving Arcane 1 to 10 XP, we also moved "Mage Armor" to second level Arcane? It's a rather tempting spell if you simply intend to take one level of Arcane, clad yourself in armor, and charge in with a cleaver or tower shield-immune to just about everything. I think together these solutions would deter most people from simply casually spending a couple XP to reap the utility on character that otherwise has no other connection or intention to use magic.
(I just did the math, it actually than possible for a brand new character, a Human Fighter with no XP beyond their bio and mandatory NPC event to begin the game with: Armor Proficiency, Improved Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, Improved Shield Proficiency and Arcane 1-even if we assume first level Arcane is 10xp. That means full plate, tower shield and mage armor. How did we fall to the undead if anybody could do this?)
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blueruby
Order of Starkhaven
Plot Staff
Captain Anne Cash
Posts: 924
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Post by blueruby on Mar 15, 2015 12:23:05 GMT -5
Let me preface this post with the disclaimer that these are my opinions mostly as a player (who has seen a lot of combat, both as a warrior and a mage), not necessarily as a Herald. I welcome discussion about them, and don't want the conversation watered down or written off just because I'm a Herald. Drake - A few points on the Mana Bands: 1. Your experience with hair ties breaking may or may not be common, I honestly don't know. I know that personally, I've had a hair tie or two break on me, but only after months of abuse working to hold my hair in a ponytail at work, sleeping in it, working out with it, etc. and not changing it out for way too long (I know, it's disgusting and I should be ashamed. Sue me ), whereas I've had rubber bands snap on me pretty easily, especially when it's cold. Speaking of which... 2. Casting in cold weather should be harder. Granted, I'm operating under the assumption made from years of DnD, that you need to have a certain range of motion in your hands to cast at max effectiveness: just about any kind of armor or protection in that game gives you a chance to fail in the casting of the spell. Obviously those spells are more powerful and more prevalent in the world, which is why our system is more forgiving: Gloves restrict your finger movements more than not-gloves, and cold weather is going to slow them down even more. Fighters have a harder time swinging a sword and maintaining a grip on their weapon in cold weather, mages should realistically be on an even playing field in that regard. 3. I will argue until I'm blue in the face that rubber bands are FAR more decorum appropriate than hair ties. Most hair ties that end up being used are black (or dark brown) and round, meaning they stick up off the skin significantly. Rubber bands tend to be more of a fleshy tone and generally lie flat, reducing their profile. Up close, sure; they'll both be visible, and not very decorum-appropriate. However, stand back 100 feet and tell me that black bands covering half my forearm are going to be less noticeable than those flat rubber bands that blend in to my skin tone decently, and I'll want to know what drugs you're on and why you aren't sharing . On top of that, I always assumed we wouldn't be able to see how much mana a caster has left: If they're a few yards away and I look at their left wrist and see a bunch of black hair ties, I'm going to know that it'll be dangerous for me to close with them, but if their wrist is empty, I could feasibly take them on. With the rubber bands, I won't really know for sure until I get closer, and even then, it's a bit of a crap shoot. I'm going to weigh in on some of your other points here, as I feel like I've conveyed enough of my thoughts on mana bands to move on. 4. Casting with a shield is a tricky situation, especially because again, my thoughts on casting spells is similar to DnD, where a pretty good range of motion is required: Something you wouldn't really be able to do while holding a weapon or shield, in my opinion. You tuck a weapon away (in a frog, under your arm, on the ground, etc.) to cast a spell, I feel you should have to do the same with a shield. Take it off, cast the spell, put it back on. Fighting with a weapon or blocking with a shield is tricky, too: Where do we draw the line for too much movement? Who makes the call? What happens if people don't respect that? I see it getting way too tangled up and messy to be really practical. We could stipulate that when you are holding a primed spell, you essentially have a Light Wound in your off hand (but still allowing people to hold items, as that takes very little concentration). In other words, your arm would have to hang limp at your side, unable to move, block, or attack unless it gets lucky. Again, just an idea to get the ball rolling on that discussion. It's a fun concept that I'm not opposed to, but I want to make sure it's done in a fair and balanced way. 5. Imbuing a weapon with a spell is something I see as reserved for a Weaver. Casters harness that mana, channel it into the form of a spell, then release it. Weavers get a little more creative with their casting, bending some of the rules slightly to utilize different effects. Again, balancing it out would be crucial, as we don't want everyone running around with magic weapons, but it's definitely an angle to consider, and have a few ideas for it myself. I don't have them solidified quite yet, but I'll try to have something to bring to practice for some play testing in the next few weeks. 6. On your last point: We have started implementing Ciphers into the game for those who wish to learn Arcane Magic, and are working on ways to replicate that effect for learning Divine. This is to replicate the learning necessary to produce the desired effects. All done in game, players essentially need to work through a puzzle for the spells they wish to learn, which helps deter a few power-gamers. This is a time-intensive procedure, partially dependent on the skill of the caster themselves. These ciphers have already begun working their way into the game (Just ask Tobias), although they aren't terribly widespread as of yet. We've also been discussing how to make things fair for existing mages and clerics, basically coming up with a highly simplified version of them to do, mostly in the interest of fairness. I would assume there will be a grace period allowing former casters to catch up, but magic is supposed to be something special in the world, and we want to see a little more dedication from casters in-game. Not trying to call anyone out or anything, just saying it's a trend that has been noticed. Some people do really well, others start to slack off on it. This is simply a way to, for lack of a better term, cull the herd: Those who RP their spells, spend a little extra time, and don't mind dedicating some effort to their magic will be fine. Those who don't, who have no interest in RPing the casting of the spells or the rituals involved will have a harder time, and may decide that magic really isn't right for them, or will start to treat magic as the impressive supernatural power that it is.
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Post by Archmage Vazra on Mar 15, 2015 13:45:52 GMT -5
I'm really quite fond of your sixth part. However I'd still be concerned by players making new characters with a level as part of their initial skills to circumvent the obstacle entirely, then never putting any additional roleplay or dedication into playing a Mage. Magic should be special, I don't want to see it reduced to a generic utility.
In response to 5: I am not suggesting a process of enchanting weapons. Attacking with the prop would have no additional effect, and would not deploy the spell. I simply suggest "staff" for additional flavor, it wouldn't even need to require a functioning weapon at all. (The antler staff would be an example.) It would simply store the single casting of the spell, nothing more. Call it a petty variation of weaving. Besides, I still see Mana Bands as problematic in the winter months. Especially when it becomes cold enough that the removal of gloves is dangerous. My character would risk his fingers in a life or death situation, but as a player in a game I'm a little more reluctant. This is Wisconsin, we need to take cold and hot weather injuries seriously. I see this as a potential solution in addition to adding to the game in it's own way.
As for spell casting and shields: I've always assumed in the Last Hope setting, the movements to cast a spell are precisely as intricate as described. We've always held to a standard of treating things as they are physically presented; "What you see is what you get", as Ryan says. That seems to me the answer to the question of both casting with in cold weather and with shields. If you can complete the motion with a shield, then clearly it isn't a hindrance to spell-casting.
Once a spell is primed is another story. I don't think the arm going limp would solve much, as a player could simply wear a tower shield and rotate at the hips to defend. I have two potential solutions to suggest: the first is that players simply be allowed to defend with a spell primed, flat out. I'm more fond of the second, which is to say that spells are really volatile, hence why you need to walk slow with one primed. Running, swinging a weapon, or the shock of blocking, parrying or taking a hit causes it to fizzle.
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Faolan
Archons of the Spire
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader?
Posts: 93
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Post by Faolan on Mar 15, 2015 17:02:00 GMT -5
I've always wore my bracers under my mana rubber bands because having rubber bands on my hair arms hurts like hell. So the "skin tone" of the rubber bands stands out against my bracers just as bad as black hair ties might stand out against someone's skin. At least with hair ties, there is also the possibility of other colors so that a player might have a better chance of blending the color with whatever they have under the mana bands.
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Faolan
Archons of the Spire
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader?
Posts: 93
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Post by Faolan on Mar 15, 2015 17:11:45 GMT -5
As for the difference between what Drake and I are talking about and what a weaver does, would mainly be that a weaver can affect other player's items while storing a spell in a staff would only be for the benefit of that spellcaster. The spellcaster can channel the mana for a spell and then use their staff to "stabilize" and store it instead of just holding onto that ball of energy themselves for a short period. The spellcaster is continuously "working" to keep the spell stable in the staff, hence they can not get any of the mana back that they used to store the spell until they use the spell.
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Post by Archmage Vazra on Mar 22, 2015 14:57:26 GMT -5
Small tweaks I've been thinking about:
-A clause could be added to the Rage skill detailing the proper reaction to spells such as: Ice Bolt, Flare, Stun Bolt, and even a extraordinarily well timed Recall. Personally I believe these non-damaging spells should at least stagger, but should not retain their full effect.
-Speaking of Recall, I've always found the spell descriptions term "severely fatigued" to be rather vague. It should be clear if somebody casts recall whether they can desperately defend themselves or flee if they end up somewhere hostile.
-Clarification could be added on the relationship between using ones "Last Hope" and the "True Grit" skill. For example, does one roll their "True Grit" first and only use their Last Hope if that fails? Or do they have to spend their "Last Hope" first before using it? Lastly, if they have the option of attempting a "True Grit" roll first, can they choose to expend their "Last Hope" in the event they would be physically maimed?
-I still insist hairbands be allowed for use as Mana, however "Custom" Mana Bands should not be allowed (Such as ones made from craft store elastic cord)
-A clause clarifying when and if Mana does in fact return over time, (Between events? Overnight during a multiple day event?)
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Post by stanrick on Mar 22, 2015 15:15:28 GMT -5
If we ok hair ties, we need to ok coustoms as well. I personally am ok with this a coustom mana bands because you can make them work well with your garb for dicorum. But that's my oppion
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Post by Archmage Vazra on Mar 25, 2015 18:07:07 GMT -5
-I don't think allowing hair ties sets a precedence for just anything. Custom Bands seems like it's own can of worms entirely, I'm not making any attempt to condone or condemn their use. Also, had a hair-tie burst for the second time at the Combat Event, which had still never happened with a rubber band. I am thoroughly convinced they are equally, if not less durable then Rubber. (Rubber bands lack the structural weakness of being glue together at a single point)
This might be straying away from the rules revision slightly and into general feedback, but I've been thinking about events starting behind schedule and how that process might be streamlined, and one of the roadblocks I've noticed from the player side seems to be skills, xp, and miscellaneous issues at check in. I don't know the feasibility of this, but perhaps some of those issues could alleviate if that database was available for players to view somewhere, to check their current skills or sort any confusion out between events. Yes, it would mean a ton of extra questions, but each of those would be one not asked twenty minutes after the game was supposed to begin.
Speaking of which, the reoccurring "jokes" at the event briefings need to end. When we only have a couple hours to play, and we're cutting into that very limited time, it's not funny, it's a real dick move. I had a brand new player, just barely managed to find time to come out and try Last Hope; lose that time to play to various issues including that one. Who is going to come back if their only experience with the game is paying 10 dollars to listen to some BS questions about the medic rules?
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Post by singkofer on Mar 25, 2015 23:50:06 GMT -5
I only have 1 thing that I'd really want looked at, and that is the use of the Magical Protection spells on bows. The reason for it is because you can always restring or mend it. I don't get why that is the only combat utilized item that gets protected by the magic armor. I mean typically bow users stay in the back of fights, and they should be able to draw their own steel to defend themselves. I find it to be better balanced because bows can wreck shop, if you can run and hit that bow once and it's broken you've disabled that archer until they get it restrung or mended. If there's protection and you try to break an archer's bow, you'll probably have at least an arrow in you before you get that bow actually broken and it'd be down right better to just kill the archers.
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Post by Jopper13 on Mar 26, 2015 17:20:19 GMT -5
There are a few more things I am adding to the list to be considered or changed... - Wording on tossing shields last second to avoid getting hit with a spell... travels through (conductor style) to the target - Clarify a ruling on shields worn on back in conjunction with shields worn actively on the front. Can 2 shields be worn and used at same time? Will there be size limitations? etc. - Clarify wording on caution, to help explain it better. Add clause that using it to distract other players is againts the rules. - Clarify rage and spells; all spells negated to basically only stagger or knock back effects. - Clarify wording on shields being used in conjunction with other weapons (bucklers only) including magic - Clarify wording on active use of weapons and fighting while holding primed spells (fizzles, needs concentration) - Clarify wording on core less daggers/weapons being used in melee combat (cannot, unless it is a grapple) - Expand wording on PvP, to incorporate other players into it, to keep true to the PvE environment. - Clarify only one type of rage at a time (no chain rages). - Possibly add a clause for "No Reaction = No Mana Cost" for spells that are not reacted to properly... not characters being immune, but just player error. - Potential Shiv-styled attack, similar to Pierce, that allows you to take someone to mortally wounded - Possibly adding a traits and Role play character guide for PCs, chosen to show overall "spirit/intent" of a PC's motives during character creation. - Adding a What Can I Do vs Can I Do clause to the game, explaining creative ideas and interacting with others. - Potential new skill allowing mages to prime a striking bolt in their off hand if they prime another type of spell in their primary hand (similar to how you can do multiple striking bolts, this could give you 2 different types of spells) - Change Divine Aid from using silver/gold ribbons to using the same bandages as First Aid, to ease in making things more consistent. - Alter Regeneration, removing the ability to completely heal wounds but instead downgrade Mortal Wounds to Light Wounds or tag wounds that will "heal naturally" after an event instead of needing to be paid for by downtime mechanics. - Idea to remove beads for Flare, since Push does not require them, but possibly to require them if you intend to walk with them? This allows a reactionary Flare spell (defensive) or priming them to allow a more offensive use of the spell. - Update wording on encroaching... simply? Change? Not sure yet. (Discussion on Facebook) - Change wording on "Waylay Sap" and "Waylay Pierce" as it annoys Ryan and sounds gamey. - Clarify that hits with a striking weapon do damage regardless if the "striking edge/head" hit the target. - Potential change to wounding system, to streamline in (Discussion on Facebook). - Potential change to hand on weapon rules, making them valid targets (Discussion on Facebook). - Potential change to Shield Expert; simply adding 1 Cleave to a shield instead of doubling it, due to confusion with how mend works and the points brought back. - Potential change to First Aid, making the levels mean how many times you can treat a wounded location instead of what kind of wound you can treat. - Some shifts in skills, making a few more things cross-class. Primarily, Improved Shield Proficiency and Improved Armor Proficiency being cross class for clerics, possibly making Profession a Rogue class skill and making it cross class for others, make Two Handed and Thrusting class skills for Rogues, - Possibly remove Respite as a skill entirely, due to lack of use and confusion of its wording/usefulness. - Add in a small clause about needing to know how magic works and having a theme if you intend to take it, and add a blurb about having to do cyphers and tests to cross class into magic.
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Post by Archmage Vazra on Mar 26, 2015 18:46:50 GMT -5
-I'm for all for a "Shiv" type skill, it's strange that the most qualified assassin in the world is a 3rd level Arcane Mage channeling a death bolt while his mark isn't looking. It would need to be a very difficult to obtain skill though for both immersion and balance reasons.
-Before I can offer input, I need to ask: Is PVP frowned upon in Last Hope? Either way it should be expanded upon in 1.4 rules.
-Honestly, while it is realistic that shields should still function while strapped on, for gameplay balance I don't think they should. It wouldn't require min/maxing for an ingenious character to strap two tower shields together like a turtle shell and sprint through enemy lines causing mayhem. As hilarious as that would be, serious, gritty setting. Let's keep it that way.
-Really for the "No reaction, no mana cost" rule. Sometimes odd moments happen in combat, perhaps somebody is new and doesn't remember how to react, or just flat out doesn't notice the spell. Instead of breaking immersion, calling them out, creating an argument or explaining the situation it provides an alternative quiet solution to continue the game without serious penalty to the caster. Rather then instigating a big fuss.
-The "what can I do vs can I do" clause would do well with some examples. It was certainly one of my confusions as a new player,
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Post by Jopper13 on Mar 26, 2015 19:24:19 GMT -5
I only have 1 thing that I'd really want looked at, and that is the use of the Magical Protection spells on bows. The reason for it is because you can always restring or mend it. I don't get why that is the only combat utilized item that gets protected by the magic armor. I mean typically bow users stay in the back of fights, and they should be able to draw their own steel to defend themselves. I find it to be better balanced because bows can wreck shop, if you can run and hit that bow once and it's broken you've disabled that archer until they get it restrung or mended. If there's protection and you try to break an archer's bow, you'll probably have at least an arrow in you before you get that bow actually broken and it'd be down right better to just kill the archers. Aaron, I know it can be frustrating, but this was actually added in because people were suiciding themselves to get close enough to hit a bow (which is actually kind of dangerous) in order to break it. Now, since equipment can be protected by auras too, breaking of a bow is more circumstantial instead of a targeted attack.
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