I will be speardheading a "soft" update of rules from v2.3 to v2.4 based on collecting notes and seeing the rules in action for most of 2015.
Players are welcome to post ideas on feedback for changes, tweaks, or updates of the current rules. This is NOT a rules rewrite, but an edit/tweak of current rules. This update will be worked on through the winter months and is scheduled for a roll out starting in March, 2016.
I will follow up with a list of changes that are planned or being considered, but feel free to post ideas for discussion in the meantime.
Personally, I feel like we could afford to bump the Civilians required to work a building up to 10, making them more of an investment and forcing faction leaders to spend a little more time considering whether or not they need another building.
Post by mandaloretim on Jan 9, 2016 1:19:01 GMT -5
If you were to bump the civilians to 10 per building. I would lose more then half of my work force(yes i have a lot of buildings). Making little to no sense. Also the lumber mill isn't that OP by itself. Anyone can buy it and it only becomes OP when combined with a labor guild. And even then you still need to have more then 4 supplies and around 40ish silver to use it in it's "OP" value. This rarely happens though. If you take away some of the things any did, then i'd like some kind of a refund to it's past cost. I bought it for what it does and not for it to lose things two years later in this game. If you want to do soft changes that's fine, but taking half my work force and removing building effects is something that i'm not ok with.
I feel that you did a great job with the rules we have now. I don't feel there needs to be any big changes to something that already works great.
I think the lumber mill / labor build combo is powerful, yes, but I don't see it as really "OP". I've seen how it influences the harvest rolls, and honestly I think it helps more as a "guarantee" for food instead of some broken combo for excessive gain. It does take a good investment, like what Tim said, to get both those buildings going and I think it should have a decent impact. With it only re-rolling instead of adding 1 (Which means there is a chance it will not help at all) then the buildings just help the chance of success instead of raising the ceiling and creating a loophole to make tons of supplies.
Half the reason why a number of the factions have decent supplies now is because they found sponsors to feed their troops through the conflict; without that, the supply drain can be massive. I think a settlement with Farms, lumber mill, and laborer's guild should be able to keep up with the demands of some troops in the field (without a sponsor). This is a good angle to look at though.
As for the buildings, I also am leaning towards the 5 people being enough. Civilians are a treasured resource; they really impact the harvests and are what are needed to make or replenish pretty much anything. Storyline/plot/contract reasons aside, the only way to get more civilians is through a recruitment drive but even that is pretty difficult to do... sent out a unit to recruit or have them do things to further the group's goals? I think it is rather balanced as it is; 10 seems pretty harsh.
One thing that has always confused me is how we pay for everything 3 times. 1:XP 2:silver 3:supplies
In my mind I feel that supplies and silver should be interchangeable to a point. As a ulven faction leader I sometimes make deals that are unusual for my PC because we need silver. And I really have a hard time asking the group for silver because two of the PCs don't use it as part of the concept of their PC. I would like to see some consideration on this topic maybe a set conversation rate so a faction that may have abundance of one recourse could still make things with what they have?
Stanrick Longfang, Chieftain of Pack Longfang - Ulven
A second idea I had is if a faction is hurting for food like in winter or a something the faction leader could spend like 3 XP for a load of food to feed his people for a month, this would only get them food for the people and could not be used for makeing units/buildings
Stanrick Longfang, Chieftain of Pack Longfang - Ulven
Post by mandaloretim on Jan 24, 2016 1:48:08 GMT -5
As long as it's not used for building things i feel it could work. however i think it should be a bit higher then 3 exp, however i don't know how high it should be. maybe a percentage of what you have for exp as a faction? This way it could be like a last ditch effort to feed your people.
Post 1 - Reply to ideas in the mix (My next post will summarize some possible changes)
Jake, I agree that there is a bit of a hinderance to anyone wanting to be "true ulven" and not use any silver. This system does favor incorporating silver into the mix, which does follow the way the story has progressed. The Ulven have adopted this method quickly, as an upgrade in commerce is a change that can spread and become adopted quickly. This is still possible in an abstract way through flavor text. Instead of "spending 10 silver" you can "use or trade 10 silver worth of goods". This is a necessary step to streamline the system in order to make it manageable. As for your players, you can still ask them to donate items or barter things; reagents, precious metals, furs, items, etc... those have some sort of value and donating them to a faction can give you a stockpile of "wealth". Your holds could be stocked with loads of supplies and various reagents and items and hold worth. Again, I think this comes down to flavor text and some slight tweaking... because we will not be able to do a second system that is barter only.
As for your idea on feeding the populace with exp, I have specifically opted not to do so because it forces factions to manage all of their supplies. If I play starcraft, if all I have are minerals and I need to build something that takes minerals and vespian gas, I can't build it... part of the challenge of factions is managing the silver, supplies, and exp. Exp is also explained abstractly as "the power and influence of your faction". You can't eat it, so gaining wealth and flying your banners does not help you feed troops or put dinner on the tables of your populace. A potential idea, however, is to use exp to "stabilize" or "suspend" morale from dropping from -1 to -2. At -2, this is where the penalties start influencing everything you do. -1 is general angst amongst the people, -2 is a direct detriment that affects day to day life. This exp usage could represent your people spending time and energy reinforcing your goals and seeing to the needs of the people; they spend "time and energy" on the people instead of on growth and expansion, taking more control on rationing food and supplies and managing during the crisis. You aren't feeding the people, but you are keeping them from teetering into revolt or starvation.
Drake, Your mage unit is actually immensely powerful. Guaranteed damage that adds onto combat is huge during the rolls for unit VS unit combat, as damage dealt tends to be consistently low and opportunistically/rarely spiking high. A higher "constant" of damage actually influences it tremendously. This affect is similar to the archers but an archer needs to flip for the damage; they can do between 0-2, where mages *always* do 1 damage. There is a bit of a typo though, as the Mage unit was meant more to counter the multiple levels of Armor that we used to have in the rules. Now we just have the 1 level, so the mage perk really just does a point of damage no matter what. The way I perceived Mages VS Archers is that arrows could be deadlier... they fire farther than spells, one archer can shoot dozens of arrows without tiring much, so their lethal potential is higher... but they can be blocked by shields, armor can help survive the arrows a bit, and they don't pack the punch of the stronger spells. Spells, on the other hand, are shorter ranged, more consistent in their damage as they can't be blocked unless by magic, and limited. So they may do more damage than arrows but exhaust quicker... in the scale of unit VS unit combat, this means consistent damage but less chance for wholesale carnage. I'll focus on this perk to see if it needs a tweaking, but it may just change to "Mages deal 1 damage each combat, and maybe negate the shield wall defense bonus". I'll think on it. Add berserkers to this unit and now you have the Arcane Ragers... constant extra damage and when they die, they beef up the outgoing damage. It is a devastating combo.
As for the farms, yes this is on my list. The idea was that the trade off of committing 5 people to the farm to decrease your harvest every month for 12 months was worth it... but I think it weighs too heavily on the negative.
=== REMOVE === 10th of month time req. Changed to 15th.
5 civilian req for Farms.
Extra wording in Unit Combat that adds confusion.
=== ADD OR CONSIDER === Hospital Building - Possible access to better downtime healing for PCs. Perhaps location bases... if event is near faction HQ?
Library - Synergy bonus to Academy and Temple.
Walls and Improved Walls - Detail out what it does.. level 1 = +1 defense and level 1 = Toughness equivalent?
Export - Need to establish if it requires civilians. Most likely will, as these people tend to the administration of the export. 5 civilian req.
Population Growth - Need to factor in a 6 month or 12 month "population growth" percentage. Your people will make babies and expand slowly. People will die too, but usually this is not as fast as they expand the population. So a "Population change" update could hit your faction. If you take care of them and they are happy, perhaps this is a positive percentage... if you neglect them or something happens, this could be constant or a negative. The intent of this is a small positive number so factions can see growth without a recruitment drive, but is probably more like a handful of people per half year.
Diplomats and Ambassadors - Need to state that they get flips or reflips during diplomatic tasks. Right now there isn't much detail on them.
=== CHANGES IN CONSIDERATION === Review active/inactive PC status. Potentially move to 9 months of absence instead of 12. 1 year is a long time.
Review Active/inactive faction status. Possible change to how this works, intent will be same but possible slight tweaking. Change to remove chance of gaming/hanging on if a faction does not have at least mediocre attendance of members.
Redefine what happens when factions are inactive and degrading/gone. Does not always mean they will "degrade" but instead revert to story/NPC.
Fix Barracks wording and redefine. Militia and Soldiers don't need a barracks to replenish. Militia are 1:1 replenish, perhaps soldiers are 50/50 unless there is a barracks? Means that some wash out unless they have proper facilities.
Remove falcon tower being bought multiple times; limit base to just 1.
Hospital - explain unit healing in more detail, isn't clear.
Outpost - Review costs, civilians reqs, etc. Downgrade to 5 civilians or remove entirely. Up to players to "man the outpost" with units or not.
Town Guard - Change to 5 civilians instead of 10. Or keep at 10 and redefine function and explain better.
Redefine if a difference is needed in adding troops or adding specialty training; seems complicated. Why bolter numbers when you can add a unit of specialists that also bolster numbers? Needs to be reviewed... most likely going to a "Bolter Ranks" or "Add Training to Unit" and tweak/soften costs a bit.
Define morale a bit more, explaining how it changes and how it influences things.
Unit and Supplies - Redefine and clarify how units can carry supplies and consume them. A bit confusing at the moment. No major change intended.
Political and Economical Units - Redefine how they can or can't attack and can or can't defend themselves. Very confusing, especially when crunching the numbers during combat.
Armed Escort - Redefine based on changes to attacking/defending with Political/Economical units. Most likely will be an add-on of 5-10 civs, kinda like Town Guard.
Students - Revamp. Confusing.... similar to reinforcing a military unit. Needs to be clarified.
Traders - Review if base traders should move 2 loads instead of 1... or is it too powerful based on the upgrades. Review cost/benefit ratio.
Customs and Etiquette - Increase base cost from 10 to 15 or 20, and reduce Ambassadors cost. Needs to be balanced.
Spies - Perhaps expend a load of supplies to boost potency of gathering info, completing tasks, or countering other spies?
Merchants and Caravans - Similar to traders, review how they handle loads of supplies.
Trade Wagons - Review if this is 10 civilians, 5 civilians, or none and just an upgrade. Perhaps break into 2 levels? Balance with econ units.
Special Merchants - Change 10 civilians to variable.
Craftsmen - Need to review; possible change to generic craftsmen and then split back into Guild membership. Should this be an econ bonus or a membership of craftsmen that players can take advantage of? Initial intent was to be part of a guild; a membership that allows you to tap into localized discounts. Like AAA or AARP, but for trades. Needs review.
Apprentices - Same review as students... similar to reinforcing military units.
Veterans - Review cost. Possible drop in time/silver.
Elites - Same review as Veterans. Clarify morale resistance.
Scouts - Review training and not allowing unit to become elite. Is it necessary? Seems to not be; most likely removing this. Why can't there be elite scouts?
Berserkers - Option to turn wounded into dead for 1 damage each remains. Possible option that only killed in combat has a 50% chance to add a point of damage. Right now the rage bonus of damage is only applicable to those wounded that willingly move to dying, but those that die in combat it bypasses. Should be balanced so that dead warriors influence this as well.
Clerics and Mages - Potential chance to negate or influence enemy archer perk? Or does this balance out with the change to Mages?
Shield Wall - Redefine bonus and how it works, and in relation to Archers. Most likely ok, but needs to be evaluated.
Skirmishers - Needs to be reviewed. Seems... underwhelming? Not sure if the effect really captures the hit and run fighting style, but not sure how to do it. Perhaps Skirmishers cannot be forced into a pressed attack?
Commander - Needs to be reviewed and the morale scale and its effects looked at in detail. This part of combat gets... wonky.
Improved Armor and Improved Weapons - Possible change back to 2 tier system. Either keeping it as is, or doing level 1 = attack or defense bonus. Level 1 = economy drain and 1 damage added or 1 damage absorbed. Consistency in combat is really big, so it makes this perk powerful (and it is not specialized training).
Toughness - Possible change from "1 Dead warrior is wounded instead" to a 2 coin flip system. Each heads means a warrior is wounded instead of dead; so instead of a constant 1 it becomes a chance of 0-2. Adds a bit more variable in combat.
Train Special Unit - Add in "Variable Civilians"
Resting (Unit Combat) - Says you can heal, doesn't say what it does... needs to be clarified. Also add in blurb that resting in your settlement does not use up supplies.
Retreat (Unit Combat) - Review if needed? Doesn't seem to explain the entire process.
Entire Combat Process - Coin flip method seems wonky and appears to produce weird results sometimes. Going to review; possibly going to a system similar to the harvest score where heads add to it but tails do not. This way, the numbers are not consistently being hamstrung by negatives and instead climb higher or stay consisten in the medium range. Doing several months of the +1/-1 coin flip system has led to some weird results. Combat should not change much, more on the back side combat crunching.
Unit Morale - Redefine or simplify. Seems wonky. Perhaps change morale to same system as settlement... or change morale to stages. Instead of +1 or -1, change to "Routed, Bad, Level, Good, and Great" or some sort of system like that. High morale seems to quickly break combat; the system needs to be tweaked.
Pushing Civilians to Harvest or Tax - Define how this works and what it does.
Settlement Morale - Define how this works... perhaps also going to the "Bad, Level, Good" system. Having numbers that don't influence things seems odd.
Last Edit: Feb 5, 2016 16:23:55 GMT -5 by Jopper13
Post by mandaloretim on Feb 6, 2016 5:19:29 GMT -5
So does this mean I'm getting 5 people back? (I have a farm) Also, I'm in favor of keeping the Town Guard at 10. I mean, how would only 5 guy maintain the peace in a village of 100 plus? 10 seems more reasonable. Also for them to be worth one flip(as per combat rules) they need that number. I would like to throw in the idea of upgrading them to make them better. Something like Normal Guards, Elite Guards, maybe up to Honor Guards. This could get them more flips as well as make them better at their job.
Yes, any changes would be retro'd. Just like skill changes with our PCs, if we change Farms from 5 people down to 0, those 5 people will rejoin your settlement as civilians.
And the idea for upgradable guards has been considered. The main thing is that the town isn't necessary guarded by *only* those 5-10 people. They are just needed to maintain and admin it. The Tower Guard pulls fighters from the populace, so there is a sort of standing militia within your people. Technically, if you wanted a more highly trained guard, you could just train a militia unit and have it remain in town. This represents the space it would take up (one of the two units that can rest) and the people required to do it (since it is a full unit).
So if the Town Guard perk represents a few officers that maintain some weapon stores and basic training for your people, when an attack comes they coordinate getting people armed and into a defensive formation. Bob the farmer from down the street throws on a helm, grabs a shield and a sword, and joins the other town guard. Without the town guard, your people run around like derps like they do in the movies when attackers run through and hack down peasants. Should you have a unit on standby for guard duty, this would be a dedicated unit that would march out and could fight as a group. I feel there has to be a distinction because the Town Guard is meant to be a basic defensive feature, not an established one... that is where the units come in.
Perhaps a second tier of Town Guard that enhances them a bit, but still makes the emphasis on lengthy combat focus on individual units?
Oh yeah! Forgot to add that I am adding a small blurb about "sieging" settlements. This doesn't mean (yet...) siege engines and huge fights, but more the surrounding of a settlement and controlling it. This will most likely come in the form of a modified harvest role, as your civilians are unable to effectively tend to their farms and fields because doing so would put them outside your settlements defenses. This will be a simple mechanic and will reflect how longer fights around villages and settlements will take place.