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Post by Jopper13 on Feb 7, 2013 22:44:41 GMT -5
The crafting/tradeskills for LH are getting a major overhaul. We created the skill "Trade" to be a very customizable skill for a number of different talents.
So... the next question is, just how detailed do we want to be with the trades for Last Hope? What do YOU guys, the players, want to see?
The idea is that we will create a small PDF file in medieval font that can be printed on parchment and bound to become a trade manual that explains how to do stuff and what it does for each trade.
Please post any ideas you have for the trades and please keep in mind that a well thought out list of ideas is really helpful. Simply replying "I think trades are great!" does not help us at all with the act of creating them.
What trades should we have?
What props/parameters should be required to do them?
How do people interact with other players with their trade (Fix armor, heal wounds, etc)
Can they craft items with the trade?
What supplies are needed to do the trade?
How do you make money with the trade?
Thanks for helping us brainstorm!
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Post by bex on Feb 7, 2013 22:58:59 GMT -5
Is there a generic manual currently under consideration? Something we can see that might spawn ideas?
I don't know if you want some of the general/starter questions about alchemy that I have given Chris or not...
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tcochrane
Player
Herald
Esoteric Knowledge Guy
Posts: 573
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Post by tcochrane on Feb 8, 2013 0:16:56 GMT -5
General things that have cropped up: 1) Trades are a way for characters to make money and put something into the in-game economy. 2) Trades are generally non-combat. They can have effects on combat (such as restoring hits, repairing armor, etc) but there probably won't be a trade that has a direct combat impact 3) Trade has to do something. If you're making an object, try to actually make the object. If you provide a service, provide a service. Typically, this means you will need tools.
We're working on condensed manuals for the existing trades (Barkeep, Healer, Blacksmith), and those points are liable to change if a really good idea comes up. Generally, suggest what you'd like a trade to do and we'll see where the debate leads.
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Post by bex on Feb 8, 2013 10:39:26 GMT -5
So my general questions to Chris are below, and are primarily to determine if a trade is worth the XP, time, and materials. It is difficult (for me, at least) to make suggestions without some basics answered: Would alchemy be limited purely to potions, or would it include things like transmutations (not sure what those would be, but it would help me to brainstorm). Perhaps, at some point, that would be relevant for a quest, magical items, etc. What mats do I need to buy vs. what needs to be obtained in game? For alchemy, how large would potions have to be? I don't want to wait until Christmas to acquire tons of ornament bottles, and a lot of the cooler looking options are glass, which seems like a bad idea, for breakage and safety reasons. How limiting will the game make crafting? Will there be a limit per day, like WoW gems? Flooding the market with something wouldn't necessarily be beneficial to me, but if I'm spending a ton of XP and mats for fairly little return, then I'd probably not take the trade (yes, that might be a little more American LARP-y, and yes, LARP-y is, in fact, a word....now, anyway). Am I limited to mana and healing potions, or, through Herald-y wisdom goodness, if ideas occur, are they open for discussion (I'm willing to craft Ulven happy pills for healers )? Something like poisons? I don't think that there should be in game mechanics regulating prices, and that should be up to individual vendors, to stimulate bargaining and competition. Will those two learning NPC days be as my character, but not in combat, or a random NPC? Also, I think cross-trade options would be cool; for example, if I craft/create something that can be beneficial for healers (aside from basic healing potions, I don't know what that would be yet), then it is something they can utilize. Or perhaps I need to acquire something from them to craft healing potions. That will generate role-playing and stimulate the in-game economy, rather than my showing up or questing for everything I need on my own. I think I'd sent Chris a few other comments/questions, but I can't access FB atm.
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Post by bex on Feb 8, 2013 10:48:28 GMT -5
Also, I think there should be a discussion on a financial boost. If trades are something be introduced, do people want characters to fend for themselves on "start up costs/mats/etc." or do you want an implemented game mechanic? I'm mostly asking as a new PC with a whopping 4 silver or so, but I think it is relevant for future players who bank a lot of XP to start a character.
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msons
Player
Herald
Posts: 292
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Post by msons on Feb 8, 2013 12:20:03 GMT -5
I'm just going to answer your last question for now, because that's the easiest off the top of my head.
In the past we've had blacksmiths/healers pay the provisioner to set up space in their outpost/tavern/whatever. That kind of died away, but it'd be good to reinstate because then there would be some cost to the trade and not all profit.
As far as start up costs, out of game, the players should have pretty much everything they need (so ryan doesn't have to worry about outfitting everyone), and in-game..... well, there could be a wealthy merchant who thinks its in their best interest to get you started. That would encourage players to TALK as well if they want financial aid.
Not sure if that answers your question, but i'm too hungry and busy to think about it more at the moment.
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tcochrane
Player
Herald
Esoteric Knowledge Guy
Posts: 573
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Post by tcochrane on Feb 8, 2013 12:40:42 GMT -5
1) Would alchemy be limited purely to potions, or would it include things like transmutations (not sure what those would be, but it would help me to brainstorm). Perhaps, at some point, that would be relevant for a quest, magical items, etc. 2) What mats do I need to buy vs. what needs to be obtained in game? 3) For alchemy, how large would potions have to be? I don't want to wait until Christmas to acquire tons of ornament bottles, and a lot of the cooler looking options are glass, which seems like a bad idea, for breakage and safety reasons. 4) How limiting will the game make crafting? Will there be a limit per day, like WoW gems? Flooding the market with something wouldn't necessarily be beneficial to me, but if I'm spending a ton of XP and mats for fairly little return, then I'd probably not take the trade (yes, that might be a little more American LARP-y, and yes, LARP-y is, in fact, a word....now, anyway). 5) Am I limited to mana and healing potions, or, through Herald-y wisdom goodness, if ideas occur, are they open for discussion (I'm willing to craft Ulven happy pills for healers )? Something like poisons? 6) I don't think that there should be in game mechanics regulating prices, and that should be up to individual vendors, to stimulate bargaining and competition. 7) Will those two learning NPC days be as my character, but not in combat, or a random NPC? 8) Also, I think cross-trade options would be cool; for example, if I craft/create something that can be beneficial for healers (aside from basic healing potions, I don't know what that would be yet), then it is something they can utilize. Or perhaps I need to acquire something from them to craft healing potions. That will generate role-playing and stimulate the in-game economy, rather than my showing up or questing for everything I need on my own. 1) Potions are the obvious "basic" idea for alchemy. There are other ideas that can be worked out if a good mechanic is suggested with them. We will definitely be interested in making the trades useful for the game in an adventuring sense; the ability to analyze an unknown substance is going to be a key point for this particular trade. 2) You need to buy your equipment (alembics, retorts, piping, assorted powders and alchemist-looking props), as do all trades. Any reagents or crafting materials will be provided in-game with physical representations, typically in the form of flowers, rocks, powders, mysterious liquids, etc. As for the final products; no clue yet. 3) Negotiable. Look at the potions Ryan had at the dinner; those spherical bottles work as a good representation of what might work. Glass, while nicer, indeed has a bit of a hazard for in-field work, but so long as you get thick-walled glass and instruct players to be careful, it might not be an issue. Plus, it looks better and adds to the immersion. 4) Crafting will be limited to in-game material availability and time spent. There is no limit beyond what materials can be scrounged up and the time necessary to make an item. Having an "X per day" limit requires additional bookkeeping, which we would prefer not to have. 5) Propose ideas and we'll see what can be done. Poisons are currently "on the fence" - generally, our monsters are hideously outnumbered by the PCs so poison seems a bit wasteful on them, and if used on other players it might encourage excess PvP. It's something that can be discussed, but still needs work, as we are refining the poison system to prevent slowdown and immersion breaking. 6) Free market all the way. 7) Determined at the event. Part of the reason for these training periods are because we need more NPCs at games and, if trade skills are useful enough, it allows us to get those volunteers as well as prevent the game from getting flooded. 8) That is an excellent idea, and is going to be placed in a notebook of similarly quality ideas.
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Post by Jopper13 on Feb 12, 2013 12:09:19 GMT -5
I'm glad there are already some ideas on the table for some trades.
I had an idea of breaking the trades down into a couple different parts. A service, a craft, and a refinement. A service would be the part of the trade that can be used to help other players such as giving them in-game bonuses or influencing their stats/equipment. A craft would be something that can be created or altered. A refinement would be taking some sort of reagent and "melting, cooking, brewing, changing" etc into a better and more valuable component. Refined reagents would be "sold" back at check-out for money.
Here are a couple trades broken down into this format.
Blacksmith Service: Repair metal armor and shields fully and partially repair leather and wooden shields. Craft: Upgrade armor or make small items Refinement: Smelt ore into metal ingots.
Healer Service: Cure diseases, heal hits, heal wounds. Craft: Create first aid kits or upgrade existing kits, or make anti-disease salves. Refinement: Refine Fae Leaves down into their potent versions.
Alchemy Service: Use teas and reagents to cure poisons. Craft: Brew potions such as healing, mana potions, anti-venoms, etc. Refinement: Steep, brew, etc reagents into oils and more potent components.
Carpenter Service: Can fully repair shields or fortify them to be stronger. Craft: Can make and reinforce wooden structures such as gates and walls. Refinement: Can take rough logs and turn them into quality lumber.
Leatherworker Service: Can fully repair leather armor and "catch" animals using traps. Craft: Can reinforce leather armor? Refinement: Can take rough animal hides (caught animals) and tan them into better quality pelts and leather.
This general idea would make the trades more detailed and niche specific, so the exp cost and means to obtain them would have to be easier. Instead of 2 events as an NPC and 15 exp, it would be probably 5-10exp each skill instead. A character could easily get numerous trades to cover different aspects of crafting and trades.
One problem this brings up is.... how to cover non-craft based things? We may have to bring in a "Profession" skill that is handled a bit differently. Examples below.
Tavernkeeper Work the tavern or service players with drinks and food to gain in-game coin.
Entertainer Play music or dance to earn in-game money.
Merchant Buy and sell goods to turn them in for a chance to make profit.
Cartographer Make in-game maps and turn them in for in-game money.
etc...
Thoughts?
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Post by Jopper13 on Mar 7, 2013 16:05:13 GMT -5
Nobody else has anymore thoughts on the trades skill format we will move forward with?
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Salamander
Player
Captain Logic is not steering this tugboat.
Posts: 438
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Post by Salamander on Mar 7, 2013 16:39:19 GMT -5
FISH MONGER
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Post by DVertein on Mar 8, 2013 12:10:36 GMT -5
I'd rather see a trade system that goes from more general to more specialized. It makes it easy to get into the trade system especially for new players. So something like this
and each tier comes with a requirement of greater props to be set up in order to take and use the skills. so you can start with just a few and expand as your skill does.
I. Blacksmith (10Exp & 1 NPC Shift) You can fully repair all armor at a rate of 1 point every 4 minutes. Requirements: Same as now; some generic tools to role play with.
II. Leather (and cloth) (5Exp) Wood (5Exp) Metal (5Exp) You can fully repair chosen fields at a rate of 1 point every 3 minutes. Requirements: Tools of your field. For example leather pieces/laces, rivets, ect. Or a hammer, nails, wood, carving tools, ect. Or a mock fire for smelting, pliers, metal plates, ect.
III. Tanner (5Exp & 1 NPC Shift)Carpenter (5Exp & 1 NPC Shift) Smelter (5Exp & 1 NPC Shift) You can fully repair chosen profession at a rate of 1 point every 2 minutes. As well as produce, using forged and traded supplies and your own time, goods and products sellable to merchants and traders (and Reg). Requirements: Big props to be set around your area. For example a tanning and stretching rack complete with leather hides and furs Or half built pieces of wood working like tables and chairs or carving works Or a built permanent looking smelting fire or half built metal works and the tools.
Ex. Tanners can produce leather and furs which can be used to speed up the repair of leather and cloth or can be sold to traders and merchants. Carpenters can use wood and then role play to produce lumber to either speed up the repair of bows and wood shields or to sell to traders and merchants. Smelters can use gathered ore to produce ingots to speed repair of metal or for trade.
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Post by Jopper13 on Mar 8, 2013 12:42:08 GMT -5
I like this idea, each level becomes more specific and professional, allowing more bonuses.
So a base skill could be pretty generic but someone could really specialize in something.
Definitely worth looking at in detail and brainstorming.
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blueruby
Order of Starkhaven
Plot Staff
Captain Anne Cash
Posts: 924
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Post by blueruby on Apr 16, 2013 10:44:22 GMT -5
I think one of the things I would most like to see is, as was brought up before, easier access to coin. Not necessarily more given out, but give people the chance to replace spent coin easier, to help them become more comfortable with spending. Sure, you can push for bartering, but what about someone like me, with little to no out-of-game marketable skills to create things to trade with? Perhaps a Rogue skill, like Loot (you get so many "loot cards" or something, when you kill an NPC, you can choose to give them one. They give it to a herald after combat and see what, if anything, you found?), or just some way for PCs to have a form of income. I would be all for going out and buying things, but if I've only got three silver left, I'm probably going to be holding on to them, in case I need to visit a healer or something, rather than spending them on something fun, or otherwise useful.
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tcochrane
Player
Herald
Esoteric Knowledge Guy
Posts: 573
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Post by tcochrane on Apr 16, 2013 11:18:24 GMT -5
Income will be increased substantially after the new trade skills are posted up. The manuals for Healer and Blacksmith are ready, Alchemy is mostly done, and Barkeep is also fairly close to being finished. These will inject a lot more currency into the game, as trade becomes more important and crafting reagents become a part of the in-game economy. Heralds will also have more leeway in providing quick, in-town coin for services rendered while not adventuring. It's mainly that it's hard to balance an in-game economy when the only source of coin is Reg and items looted from monsters, hence the increase in trade goods for the game.
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Post by Jopper13 on Apr 16, 2013 17:18:49 GMT -5
Some people have just gotten crafty with bartering and approaching the right people. I have 2 pcs that have accumulated a fairly good chunk of coin simply by role playing with merchants and NPCs and offering trades of trinkets and small items they have brought from home. I even turned one of them into a magic ring because it looked so cool. Other people have gotten creative with going out to find things or offering their services as a bodyguard.
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