New Armor System Rules (1.5)

[Basil Gavras]

Compromising for larp is one thing; for instance, armor pool. But actively encourage LARP armor is not something I think should be done in a low fantasy system. The shirtless dude wearing two metal arm cannons should not get the same bonus as

The error in staff comes from not understanding what the joint system was. And people make a big deal over recounts; I remember playing before this rule set and the same armor I always wore got counted differently. Mostly its because staff and players dont know the rules and dont take time to learn them.

My ideas are above:

Name the joint that provides coverage. Layering only for completeness. Keep everything else. Except add armor must be visible to be counted, but that is a pet peeve of mine.

Also,

[Basil Gavras]

Fore something completely different; Here was something I suggested awhile ago. 

There are 10 armor areas: Head, torso, upper arms x 2, lower arms x 2, upper legs x 2, lower legs x 2

There are six minor armor areas: Face and Neck, Back Torso, Hands (pair), elbows (pair) , Knees (pair), Feet (pair)

Armor has two stages: Basic and Full.

Basic armor points cover the Major Armor areas.

Full armor points: Only once a player has Basic Coverage on all major armor areas can they are then eligible to get armor points on Minor Targets.

If armor points do not equal a whole, the point is rounded down.

Basic

Type of Armor	Head	Torso	Upper Arm	Lower Arm	Upper Leg	Lower Leg	Complete Basic
Light	1	1	.5	.5	.5	.5	6
Medium	2	2	1	.5	1	.5	10
Heavy	2	2	1	1	1	1	12

Full 

There are six minor armor areas: Face and Neck, Back Torso, Hands (pair), elbows (pair) , Knees (pair), Feet (pair)

Light - Every three minor area cover is 1 point - total 2 points for all six
Medium - Every two covered is 1 point - total 3 points for all six
Heavy - Every area covered is 1 point - total 6 for all six


Total Complete Basic

Light - 6
Medium - 10
Heavy - 12

Total Complete Full

Light - 8
Medium - 13
Heavy - 18

Complete Basic Heavy armor provides Bypass protection (arrow immunity etc)

This makes Lighter armor easy to get some points, and harder to bulk up. That's kind of the point as I view light armor as the easiest to fight in, the cheapest to get, and the least protective. Its better than nothing, or good in case you need to absorb hits and leave. It isn't line fighting armor. 

It makes Medium armor cost effective in the Basic Complete, and a short sleeve chain hauberk as deal at 6 points. Adding will beef it up, but diminishing returns get quick. Medium armor is the first "battle line" armor, and can take a beating, but also chain and the like will sap your speed and endurance during the day.

This nerfs Basic Plate, as leaving a lot of gaps like we see wouldnt be all that useful, but still give bypass protection to make them tanky. It really makes Complete Full coverage plate tanks. Frankly, if you're willing to invest the hundreds of dollars, probably near half a grand, to get it (and makes everything look better also) I'm willing to boost it. Battle plate is when shit gets real, and the fucking around stops. You dont roll out your plate until its go time. It tires a person out to wear, and hinders their mobility quite a bit. They're steamrollers, and should be made as such. The half-plate (Basic) doesnt eat as much energy, but also doesnt protect as much. 

[Cordyn Lockwell]

EDIT: This was written before I realized we were onto Page 2 of this thread. I like the direction Peanut is going with his as well. I'll be bubbling both around in my brain cauldron.

I've gotta say that I'm agreeing with Tim largely on this. Yes we need to promote coverage, but we also are a Fantasy Larp. Low Fantasy, yes, but still a fantasy larp.

If we are really going to push the 'realism' of armor then the only answer would be to go toward a system like Arkhos or Bel has where you can only count armor if you are hit ON THE ARMOR. I don't think any of us really want to go that direction.

We are in a situation where we are going to have to balance fun, coverage, simplicity, and players ability to wear and utilize the pretty things they have bought. I don't think it should be easy to reach full armor potential (18-20), but I don't think it should be tough to reach a moderate armor potential (4-10).

To respond to Peanut's hypothetical limb response. I don't know how much of an issue that would be. Players (in our game) tend to move toward building a character's armor and garb in a way that matches them, not in a way that min-maxes their armor count. If that is perceived as a potential issue though, I would say the easiest solution is to make the Torso worth more points. It is a vital area and has the most area to cover. It doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that it would be worth more armor to cover your torso.

[Basil Gavras]

I should add I'd keep garment/padded armor the same as now.

[blueruby]

My biggest point of confusion is which joints count as which location. If that got clarified, I feel I would be perfectly happy with our current system.
As someone who has fought in full plate and fill chain and leather, I can vouch for how much more miserable the latter is. Keeping layering as a way to improve the weight of armor does not seem out of place to me, and it gives ulven players a way to achieve missile protection, instead of culturally limiting it to humans and the occasional syndar.

[mandaloretim]

Still think Miller's idea and points make the most sense.

[guthrum]

Want to stat by saying i apologize if my last post sounded angry or aggressive, i wrote it over the course of 2 work breaks and just tried to cram in as much as i could. i'm not angry or attacking anyone.

I want to bring up an important point of view about the current system and it's complexity . first, when fighting, you should be able to look at an opponent and have an understanding of their defenses, the current system does not allow a player to visually address his targets value even to a rough estimate. This is what i mean by a more healthy number spread. now it is a larp so we can't see armor damage like in real life, but still, the rest should be a bit more attainable. second, if only the staff can easily or at all do an armor count, we have a serious problem on the battlefield. many abilities require you to remove the armor or parts of it. Looking at healing and blacksmithing here. this effectively changes the count drastically and since i don't see players lining up to get counted mid battle, i am going to assume that most just wing it to the best of their ability. The system is hard to grasp when you are under pressure, and due to the current nature of the coverage system, minor errors have a big effect on your armor count. so we also have to look at this from a practical implementation on the battle field. I am a firm believer that players should learn the rules, but i understand that not everyone learns at the same rate or at all. I think the current system is more difficult than people are WILLING to put in the effort for. so they just don't, after all someone in charge knows right? So i aim for that as well.

I purposefully reduced coverage effectiveness on the point count to make the math simple, but there are some alternative ways to add more benefit to coverage bonus.
blueruby has a point, the current bypass rule is racially insensitive, it only promotes plate which does not fit the look or feel of some characters and races such as ulven. I think i have a compromise for that

With my system idea in mind, (but you can think about it for others as well) what say we remove the "PLATE" requirement for the bypass protection bonus? just make it so players must have heavy coverage on all joints with at least 50% being full coverage(this can be tweaked) this will allow players access to bypass protection at all 3 armor types and allow a bit more variety in armor types, this should give a really BIG incentive to get coverage at all levels of play. How ever this is also it's draw back, bypass protection is a HUGE deal. currently it just completely shuts down not just arrows but PIERCE as well.

I think we should split bypass protection into 2 halves, one for pierce resistant and one for arrow resistance. It we make it have 2 different requirements( such as maybe you need layering specifically for one and padding for the other? i would say layers for arrows and padding for pierce?) you still only get +1 armor for layers/padding but by meeting the coverage requirement ANDhaving padding you get arrow resistant or by meeting coverage AND having layers you get pierce resistance, and if you have coverage AND padding AND layers you get both. That should greatly increase coverage incentive, still make it hard to have complete immunity(so not severely nerfing arrows/pierce) and allow for characters like ulven from getting plate. This also still rewards heavier armor class because light armor can not get arrow immunity by nature (because it can not be layered) but it can get pierce protection, while not fudging up the maths, and this should be relatively easy to see visually for the combatants.

lastly, as a personal aside, I take real issue with the term "larp armor" this is a larp, i understand what people are getting at when they say this but, if that is your only reason, i find it invalid and petty. To me it just sounds like a contest of genitalia " my armor is, harder than your armor. my armor is more real than your armor, my sword is bigger than your sword, I know how to use my sword better than you" you feel me here?

[guthrum]

could also make full coverage specifically a requirement for the vitals(head torso) a prerequisite for some things.

[Basil Gavras]

If you're looking to make rules easier to understand, adding complexities like splitting coverages and bypass immunities is going in the wrong direction. Right now no plate, no bypass protection. That's simple to see and know. Add judgement calls in combat and it will be an issue.

As for LARP armor - I use the term because when I started it was called DnD armor, but with the rise of Larps over the last decade that basically take their rules from DnD, it's morphed. Now, I could use historically valid armor, but someone will complain that we're fantasy. Being a fantasy Larp doesn't change the protective aspects of armor. Leather and cloth we're used at best for incidental padding underneath armor, or if that's all you had. No one expected to be a warrior in it. So, historically speaking, Light armor should basically be useless unless there's a heavier level over the top. But it's treated as "armor" because DnD and fantasy Larps lifting their rules straight from DnD decided to make it such.

To get past that: Tim, I don't see your system as any less complex than the current one. Sadie's comment is right about adding the joint clarifications - everything else was because the players didn't care to know the rules. Under the old system they didn't know the rules, and under whatever system is chosen they most likely won't know the rules. Why? Because we have a lot of rules, and it's hard to know them all well. But it is on the player to put the time in to know the armor system.

Sadie - nothing is stopping an Ulven from wearing plate. They can do it. It's just a cultural thing. Its part of Ulvens flavor, just like their magic restrictions and extra hit point. It makes them unique. Though I could see Ironmound pushing out plate.


Honestly, things that deemphasize the trade offs between the different levels of armor I'm not going to be a fan of. Armor rules that require more "it's a Larp, compromises must be made" logic, I'm not a fan of.

[Jopper13]

Hey everyone,

I'm liking the ideas and the discussion so far. It gets the creativity going and it helps us analyze things. I am all for complex armor systems and I don't mind it being a bit more difficult to crunch out. To mirror what has been said, a clearer definition of joint coverage in our current system I think will be a quick and easy fix if necessary. I think it would solve the problem of not understanding the current rules.

However, I think we still run the risk of people not knowing the armor rules unless we do a bit more of a drastic change. I really like how the new system is heavily coverage based, so I don't want to lose that.

I came up with a new system idea a few days ago and ran it past a few people, had a couple others analyze it, and I tried using it to count armor from pictures of people in armor and with people at practice last night. I wanted to share this because I really believe this is a solid contender.

NEW SYSTEM IDEA:

• We change from 10 armor locations (currently) to 6 (Head, Torso, Arm, Arm, Leg, Leg) to mimic our "Wound Location" rules (also helps streamline that as well)
• Garment armor remains largely the same as it is; Torso plus some extra coverage gives you 1 point of armor. Then we can build in the "if you have a lot more, you can get another point".
• We assign a "Basic Value" to Light, Medium, and Heavy armor.
  Light = 0 armor points
  Medium = 1 armor point
  Heavy = 2 armor points
• To get the "Basic Value" of armor, it must cover a location (one of the six mentioned above) with 50% or more coverage.
• Then, a location's armor can be considered "Complete" and you get +1 Armor point (no doubling, no fractions, etc)if it goes beyond that and has 66% or more coverage AND at least 1 joint is covered on the location (Arm would be elbow or hand, leg would be knee or foot). This could just be changed to 75% with no stipulation on joint coverage but it would force joint coverage because you can't cover the limbs in that much surface area and ignore those locations. Whichever definition is easier, we go with that.
• If at any time you have "partial armor" on the body (NOT each location... but after you add everything up)  that doesn't quite count for any points, round up and assume it is 1 point. (Which means it is super newbie friendly... that 1 point is easy to get for a new player with a set of simple bracers, and this is a catch-all of "I have armor that is easy to count on most of my locations, but then I have some weird extra bits that are floating around" then it just rounds up. So someone with "7 points of armor and then some extra stuff that doesn't quite count" becomes 8 points of armor.
• The only "Judgement Call/Case by case" scenario is if you have a number of "Basic" protections for Light armor that don't actually add up to things numerous times. This is the only time you would "look at the overall armor coverage" and then make a call based on it; if you transferred the armor coverage to a single limb (like with two gauntlets) and it is enough to qualify for Complete coverage, then it can be awarded as such. For example, someone with gauntlets (hand, bracer, elbow) and full greaves (foot, greave, knee) has 4 "Basic" locations, you could assume there is a enough to round out a "Complete" location and award the point of armor. This is literally the only time a "judgement call" is made in this system.
• Then Helmets get the usual Waylay resist and then the Heavy Armor bypass protection also exists.
• Armor of higher quality (heavy) can be used to round out the coverage of lower quality (medium). For example, a plate bracer can help make a chainmail sleeve turn into "Complete Medium" coverage... but the Chainmail sleeve can't be used to upgrade the plate bracer to make "Complete Heavy" coverage

And.... that's it. 6 locations, max of 3 armor in each location means ceiling is 18 points. No more "contingency points" like vitals, set bonuses, etc... just straight values on the armor. Super easy to count, factors in both armor type/quality and coverage percentage. Removes the layering/double counting/weird complexities that slow things down. It is also new player friendly (really easy to get a point or 2 of armor) but scales according to coverage and quality.

The only topics of debate in this system are...
1) Do we build in a bonus for gambeson (which I am heavily in favor of). I would be willing to throw gambeson in as its own 1 point bonus, raising the ceiling to 19 points. If a special extra point for Gambeson is allowed if your torso is covered (or maybe Torso must be complete and then 4 limbs must be Basic coverage in padding) then you get +1 armor.
2) Do we allow stacking of armors (IE, chainmail torso with a leather breastplate over it) to "layer" to upgrade to Heavy armor. There is solid evidence on both sides of this fence.

I invite you to try this system and look at pictures of people in armor (there are a bunch of them on the first page of this thread) and see how fast and easy it is to count.

Thoughts?

[guthrum]

ok, i think i like how this sounds. I do like providing a bonus for gambeson, and i like the layers system because in the old version it was kinda crucial, plus it happens a lot in real life when your trying out different armors. I do like that it is new player friendly. I am really against raising the armor cap above 18 though,so my thought would be that instead of a armor bonus for the gambeson it self(garment rules left the same), allow armor to stack up a tier, this lets heavily armored and layered ulven get that heavy count while still being true to their look, i think it will open up diversity a bit for armor AND the gameson can layer with light armor in the same manner since it is the only thing "lighter" which overall i think will encourage armor aesthetic that we want to see and the relative realism as well. Overall, think i'd like to see this in action at least.

[Jopper13]

Another variant similar to my proposal above:

Combine arms together and legs together.
This makes 4 armor locations
- Head
- Torso
- Arms
- Legs

Garment is roughly the same as it is now.

Assign armor categories the following "Basic Coverage" armor points...
Light = 1 point
Medium = 2 points
Heavy = 3 points

To get Basic value, must be 50% coverage or more.

If "complete coverage", it needs to be either [66% coverage + 2 joints] or [75% coverage]. If complete, add +1 armor point.

Any floating armor that doesn't qualify, round up to 1 point (entire body, not per location)

If helm, Waylay resistant like it is now. However, if any helm is "complete" then the complete bonus becomes +2 instead of +1.

Wearing a gambeson (complete on torso ans basic on a set of limbs) gives you +1 armor.

Normal heavy armor bypass protection.

DEBATE ITEM: stacking armor types can create a heavier armor type (medium + light = heavy)

------------

This variant has 16 armor points (4 locations, up to 4 armor in each location, totals 16) with room for an extra point of armor for a helm (to give helms a bit more weight in armor points) with just enough room for another point for a gambeson.
There is also a passive "vitals bonus" in this variant because the torso and helm can earn more points than limbs.
Still heavily based around armor coverage and quality, but this version gets rid of the previous weird "light armor basic coverage value equals zero"

Thoughts?

[Cordyn Lockwell]

That's definitely the best one I've heard so far. It's a really quick count. Locking limbs together allows for a good deal of customization options. Gambeson is included and it has built in promotion of vital coverage through Gambeson and Full Helm.

It would take a couple hiccups to remember to view limb pairs together as a unit, but once we get a couple counts in I think this would be a really easy system for anyone to be able to count out armour quickly and effectively.

[Basil Gavras]

Damn, that's tough.

The first one feels more intuitive to me while the second is much simpler plus could lead to lower armor scores, which I like.

So Basic (6 area vs 4)

Light - 0ish vs 4 pts
Medium - 8 pts vs 6 pts
Heavy - 12 pts vs 12 pts

Complete (6 vs 4)

Light - 6 vs 8 pts
Medium - 12 vs 12 pts
Heavy - 18 vs 16

Is that right?

[guthrum]

I think the first one is better, the second doesn't strike me as having ability to handle mixed armors very well.