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Post by mendicantmedic on May 11, 2016 7:19:27 GMT -5
This is interesting, because it explains some things I've been seeing in-game. 90% of the injuries I've treated as Manetho have been weapon injuries--usually sword, axe, or arrow. The only magic damage I've treated has been dealt either by Vazra (as part of the tests at the Serai outpost) or by the Red-Eyed Syndar, or corruption--which is a different animal altogether. Since I don't typically see much of the battlefield, I had thought the enemy spellcasters just weren't very good, but if player reaction has actually been leading the game organizers not to include many arcane spellcasters among the enemy ranks, that could cause problems. (Though I'm still a newbie, so take my observations with a grain of salt.) In terms of practical game mechanics, though, I can see that certain spells or effects might have different effects on different people. Maybe you could key certain magic resistance skills to new or existing abilities? If someone is used to being bashed around by other people in heavy armor, wouldn't Push not hit them as hard? That sort of thing. Not so much changing the arcane magic as accounting for realistic responses to it. In a world where magic exists, a powerful mage could easily try to set themselves up as a king; I can absolutely see people trying to develop techniques to counter it, a la Chantry Templars. I was also discussing poisons in-character with Tyler's alchemist, and he mentioned the possibility of a poison that cuts off a mage's access to the mana stream. I don't know if that was an actual thing or just flavor for the conversation, but if it isn't in-game now, something like that might be worth exploring. It could add an additional challenge if the players have to work for it, and the rewards would be all the sweeter if you finally get the right combo of reagents and craft a potion that makes an enemy spellcaster's bolt slide right off you. It would also encourage more people to play tradesmen and enliven the in-game economy. Just my two cents.
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Post by CaptainM on May 11, 2016 7:45:26 GMT -5
Okay so I want to put in my 2 cents on this. I personally believe, as a skirmish fighter, that one of the most overpowered aspects of our game is a well trained skirmish fighter. Throw on a minimal amount of armor (I would say about 3 points but no more than 5) and learn to dodge and a skirmish fighter will rip anyone to shreds. A well placed arrow is the deadliest thing but you need to know their effective range and learn how to dodge them. As far as going against a mage, I feel they are amazingly effective in a shield line because most of the opposition is locked in place. I don't fight with a shield and have had to learn to dodge most projectiles and I think I have learned to do so effectively. I can charge a mage without much fear mostly because in a one on one fight a mage can only effectively deter or redirect their opponent. I have also learned to roll when pushed (and I am aware this is only possible because I am in less armor but that's part of our rock/paper/scissors thing) and this allows me to be down for maybe half as much time as a heavy fighter. Unless the mage is an amazing tactician I don't even usually view them as a big threat. They are usually most devastating when I forget to keep an eye on them.
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Post by Archmage Vazra on May 11, 2016 9:14:17 GMT -5
I don't see an issue with enemies fielding spellcasters now and again, if anybody complained about that I would point out the players have casters too and say "deal". (Now, I'd probably keep the majority of them 1st or 2nd level, because there's a medium here for balancing) I've never seen a problem with NPCs slinging spells at the player ranks, as the rules are written now. I was watching from the hill when the Red Eyed Syndar attacked, he didn't exactly seem eager to get close to that outpost, which is understandable because magic doesn't give a lot of options to defend yourself when the combat becomes heavy. Realistically, what would he have done if the PCs had pressed? He would have had to flee or that would be the end of him.
Yeah, I'm going to heavily agree with Matt's point. There is nothing mages can do about a skirmisher, playing a mage costs you what I believe to be the single most important attribute in the game: Mobility. You can't chase anybody with magic, you can't run away with a spell primed or maneuver with any kind of haste. If somebody wants to just pick you apart, you pretty much have to stand there and take it and at most you can kind of redirect them for a second with push.
Look spellcasters are scary, it's advantageous to me to perpetuate the idea that they're more powerful than they actually are. I've taken measures in game to perpetuate that myth, but at the end of the day, it's never what gets me out of trouble. The Red Eyed Syndar didn't get away with attacking the outpost because of the might of his magic, he avoided getting ganked through sheer intimidation. Vazra isn't still alive because he's a caster, he's alive because when he's surrounded by Mordok (like the two times last event) I laugh and vanish into the woods. By the way, I still think it says something that those two are really the only in-game examples I can point at.
I kind of like the idea though of heavier armor resisting push, maybe the missile protection bonus could also reduce the effectiveness of push? Maybe that in conjunction with a set limit of damage from acid bolts (like it melts up to 6 points of armor, and only costs 3 mana) could be the solution?
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Faolan
Archons of the Spire
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader?
Posts: 93
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Post by Faolan on May 11, 2016 10:05:45 GMT -5
But clerics don't have to cross-class into armor proficiency (or even improved armor proficiency) like mages now do, so a cleric at least has a chance to be on a somewhat more even footing with a warrior. I don't see how they would be *completely* outpaced by a warrior. A cleric might be outclassed by a mage in magic, but they can just as easily outclass a mage in physical toughness with armor, shield, and toughness without having to cross that. For that reason I strongly oppose changing mage armor into a protection spell only for spell attacks. Even if that change comes with the ability to cast it on other, its seems like it would just make mage more into a glass cannon. I also agree with Drake that adding a spell block aura would mitigate the weaver auras then. I would think only a mage as powerful as a weaver could cast something like a spell block while your "everyday" mage might only be able to manage specific counters. Like a level 2 mage can cast shatterbolt and place an anti-shatter bolt aura, but you have to see a weaver to receive an all encompassing aura. Maybe limit this so that the spell specific auras or the spell block can only be cast on others and keep mage armor to only being cast on the mage themselves. This might also alleviate a concern I think Drake is hinting at of everyone now running around with spell block auras. I see players using an "easy-to-get" (if a simple mage can cast it) spell block as their shortcut so they don't have to cross-class into arcane. Look at how it is with factions with clerics, before the game even starts the protect beads are getting passed out (to be clear, I don't have an issue with this). It would be the exact same with "easy-to-get" spell block, except that now the mages are made less effective in game where as clerics could still be just as effective with their other magic and in-class skills (armor, shield, first-aid). This all needs to be play tested, the "easy-to-get" spell block, and flipping mage and weaver defense auras. is..<input maxlength="8" size="8">
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Post by david on May 11, 2016 12:36:41 GMT -5
Reduce the cast time for Mage armor to 15 seconds. It is not cast able on others. Reduce cost of shatter and acid bolt by 1 mana but have it do set amounts of damage. 2 cleave points to a shield for shatter and 3 or 4 armor points for acid. All this talk of how a fighter can combat a Mage but it sounds like you need a Mage to fight a Mage in a lot of these suggestions. If you are a dedicated warrior I could see having a skill which would make it so you stagger or have a knock back to show that you physically trained to the point where you can withstand the effects better then most others who are not as well trained.
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Post by Archmage Vazra on May 11, 2016 13:16:14 GMT -5
I think would be completely unfair to Arcane Casters if there was a spell block aura or if mage armor could be cast on others. Actually, spell block would be even worse than mage armor because it couldn't be countered with physical attacks. Mage Armor reacting to physical weapons is actually a weakness.
I like where David is going on the shatter bolt, but what if it dealt 3 damage to a shield instead? That way, those with the shield expert skill, or those wielding particularly large shields would require more than a single spell to disarm, but the average shield user would still be effected as usual. Coupled with a cap on acid bolt damage, and a resistance to "Push" when wearing full armor. Maybe weavers could also grant a resistance ward against "push" that is placed on a shield, but that should cost reagents. I think all those changes would be more than enough to put magic in check. Not that I think there is even an issue to begin with.
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Post by Jopper13 on May 11, 2016 15:00:44 GMT -5
Catherine, One of the main reasons why you haven't seen many "magic" based wounds is because most of the events you have attended so far have had the NPC groups opposing the players with very little magic. November's event (civil war) we had 1 mage that didn't do much magic. January's village were a bunch of thugs. March's Hazemane defense had a small magic presence from the mordok. April's event had a small shaman presence until the Red Eyed Syndar arrived. In that one fight I hit 3 people with death bolts (Al Haddad, the Serai Steward, and Valdus... who negated it entirely because he had mage armor on) and then I blew up one shield (which the NPC holding that shield didn't realize what the red bolt did in the heat of combat and didn't drop the shield on accident, so it actually had no effect) and then I hit a few people with a striking bolt or two. In that fight on Sunday, the mordok team were mere steps away from being able to break into the outpost when it was fully defended with a mix of PC types/classes and the opposing team had one suicidal mordok, 2 shield mordok, 1 mordok in reserve that didn't even fight, and one powerful spellcaster (Red Eyed Syndar). The biggest impact we had on scaring the outpost with the threat of being overrun was me actually getting close enough to fling spells and the suicidal mordok coming in to rage and lash out before he died. If Manetho patched up holes in people on Sunday, then two of those mortal wounds were from 2 death bolts flung by the red eyed syndar... but as a whole, players normally are not on the receiving end of much magic. The other two times I played a mage (March 2014, the 2nd scenario of the day,the first scenario was the Battle of Black Wolf Creek... and the second one was June of 2015 when I played a mage NPC bandit) as a primary non-Red-Eyed-Syndar NPC I had devastating success against the PCs. In March 2014, I only through 1 shatter bolt, 1 stun bolt, and 1 striking bolt and the players had retreated basically "lost" the scenario and some players were upset at the challenge rating of the encounter... nevermind that I still had over half of my mana remaining and was completely untouched as the NPC mage. My initial barrage was devastating enough that I spent the next 10 minutes singing and conducting music instead of fighting; it was a quirk of my NPC. In June of 2015, I played a syndar mage bandit that was out for coin. My first encounter with players was to blast them around and confuse them, my second encounter was to shatter bolt a shield and dish out some damage with some striking bolts... which had a huge impact on the PC group and they crumbled after that. I actively spent the rest of my time trying to persuade the NPC group to hang back and not be blood thirsty and basically stopped participating in the battle after that. Even when the PCs decided to strike me down when I was trying to strike a deal, I had 2 levels of mage armor which absorbed most of the ambush and I ran away unscathed. So I guess it depends on what happens at an event and who is there and what skill sets are being deployed... it can vary greatly and is hard to see a "norm". Jimmy, While I understand what angle you are getting at, we have been talking core abilities of magic or classes, not cross classing. I was looking more at divine magic as a whole and not what kind of possible build can be made with the class. Yes, clerics can take armor, but so can mages... for a small cross class fee of 5 exp (or 4 if you are a human) because the base cost is 0. Should a warrior want to cross class and get Arcane magic and be able to deploy mage armors, they need to spend a minimum of 15 exp (or 14 if a human) base cost PLUS go through a rigorous obstacle of tracking down a cypher and unlocking it for every level of cross-class magic. Mages could spend 5 or 4 exp and get armor proficiency, no other penalties or hurtles or requirements, and wear the same armor as a warrior. We don't have a rigorous in-game obstacle where the character has to find a smith and spend time making and learning to use armor, or jump through hoops... they just cross-class into the skill for a small exp fee. This is why I did not factor in equipment based things because it is too easy to cross-class into those than it is to cross-class into magic. I was also trying to explain the difference in a divine caster versus a warrior or mage, as the magic itself is not even remotely offense based and has no hope of being "fair or even" against them. Matt, While I get your point... I also disagree almost entirely. Again, there are too many variables to consider in this. A good skirmish fighter and a good archer are light years different than a bad skirmish fighter and bad archer. Heck, a "good fighter" with any skillset is vastly different than a "bad fighter" of the same. And this is so highly skill based it is hard to compare and even circumstantial. Are we defending something like a pass or trying to protect a person? I would rather face skirmishers any day than a mage; a skirmisher can keep distance and pick people apart, but his ability to do so is entirely dependent on skill and speed. His weapons don't do variable damage or one shot people, you can't "blast" people back with an unblockable attack... the core mechanics in a skirmisher is reduced down to "you hold weapons that do 1 point of damage". How you use that can vary wildly based on training and skill. A mage, on the other hand, can take zero to no skill and be devastating to a fight, even if their spell bolts are subject to missing or falling short or whatever. If you had 2 swords to a newer player and say "Here you go, now go skirmish" they will NOT have the same affect as taking a newer player and giving them magic and say "Here you go, now go be a mage". As a mage, I suck.... I rarely practice, but I am quick on my mana spending and I very rarely miss with my spell bolts. Drake, I get where you are coming from, but I would invite you to see the deeper meaning to your own message when you recommended that if balancing magic is hard then you limit the magic to only 1st or 2nd level for NPCs. While it seems an easy fix... and technically it is... your statement literally proves that arcane magic is powerful enough that if it is too hard for PCs to handle if the NPCs use it, that the recommendation course of action is to restrict their access/use of it? Do you see where I am coming from in the core intent/goal of this discussion? Sometimes I do not want to limit the mages to only 1st or 2nd level... mages get more mana and access to things like reactionary push and stuff like that. However, access to these useful skills also grants access to skirmish-controlling spells like shatter/acid/death bolt/greater striking bolt and I don't like an "artificial hamstring" of saying they can't use certain spells or they are being arcane-nerfed in power because it presents too much of a challenge. I already explained above how the fight at the outpost happened and honestly, the Red Eyed Syndar would have been HOSED had it not been for magic. First, dropping a few people one-shot with death bolts helped even the odds. Two, is that without 2 mage armors and then a third protection, he would have been riddled with arrows and probably would not have walked away. To have a mage walk close enough to a defended outpost with numerous archers with only 2-3 allies and dish out a decent amount of damage and then walk away is powerful. To be honest, as long as one of the mordok were shielding me, I really was not concerned with the archers at all until they stopped protecting me. Why? Because the chances of the enemy archers shooting me not once... not twice... but three times (the third would be the first one to actually wound me) without any kind of dodging or deflecting with an allied shield nearby was extremely unlikely at best. It wasn't until I got into the thick of the fight and my mordok stopped protecting me that I was worried about archers. I am more worried about archers as a shieldsmen in armor than I ever am as a player with magic. Heck, at the one practice where I goofed around with my 8 foot spear I wasn't afraid of archers at all. They shot me, I fell back and put on more magical auras, and then returned. David, I like the simple fixes but I am going to side with Drake on this one; if Shatter bolt changes to do 3 dmg, then it blows up any shield unless it is a large one or someone with a regular shield and shield expert. For some reason I think this will balance nicely and want to test it out. Acid bolt could be an easy 10 points of damage to armor; nice clean number and honestly, it melts *most* armors instantly but the heavier stuff would just be heavily damaged. If both spells are reduced in mana 1 point to do this, I think it balances nicely. Mage armor, however, being reduced to 15 seconds seems really rough... mage armor is already powerful so making it easier to cast concerns me. For both Catherine and Drake, I actually do like the thought of an "Arcane Resistance" skill that could be taken to lessen the effects of some magic. Like Catherine said... if you can train to take the punishment of hits, why couldn't you train to reduce the effect of magic? I am not sure how to balance it, but a thought came to mind; a skill that halves the amount of time for Stun Bolt and Ice Bolt and "dampens" Push into a knockback and a stagger instead of a 15 feet knock and fall down. Given that this could be taken by anyone, not just warriors, it could prove very useful to mages as well. That or the spell ward that does the same intrigues me. Final note... Again, I want to emphasize that I really like this discussion... there are lots of great ideas floating around. This is how good LARPs make good games, they collaborate and discuss. I really want to point out that this conversation is about "Balancing and/or Countering the power of Arcane Magic" and NOT "screwing/nerfing Mages". There is a vast difference in the two, so please keep that in mind. Some of these changes could make it easier/better for Mages in the long run, but be implemented in tandem with additional counter-measures.
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Post by Archmage Vazra on May 11, 2016 15:44:00 GMT -5
I think you misunderstand my comment. I dont think there should be lots of 3rd level arcane NPCs not because its too powerful but because I understood that's not really common in this setting, where would these suler powerful spell casters be coming from? It would be just as confusing to see a bunch of maxed out warriors in plate armor, like... Who are these guys? I'm commenting on the lore not the mechanics. Mechanically I don't think its a big deal at all.
Also, was not necessarily advocating a skill persay.
Again, I want to stress that a spell block would be arguably more powerful than mage armor because you couldnt try to disarm it with physical attack first.
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blueruby
Order of Starkhaven
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Captain Anne Cash
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Post by blueruby on May 11, 2016 15:44:30 GMT -5
I like the idea of a Magic Resistance skill that can be taken, similar to Poison or Disease Resistance. The one I imagine would half the time you are affected by Stun or Ice Bolt, make it harder for magical ailments and illnesses to ruin your day, but also make you more resilient to Divine magic, doubling healing times through magical means. I don't like it altering any of the instantaneous spells, especially Push. I feel like different people getting affected by these spells differently in the middle of combat would be wonky at best, and am not a fan.
Another thing to think about, in favor of having Mage Armor mimic Protection but applying only to spells: They each take up one aura slot, so unless you can cast the second level on yourself, you can have one or the other active, assuming you have either. If you throw on a Protection, you can take an extra hit which will be nice against most people, but a single spell can still ruin your day. You change it up, though, and put on a Mage Armor? That Death Bolt is a lot less scary, but the archer just got more worrying. The fighter in front of you just got scary. The crazy idiot with the Dane axe is now something you want nothing to do with. It allows players to try to tailor their defenses to the situation, but it would come at the cost of more versatile physical protection. It would also give Witches a reason to ever cast Protection on themselves, since currently Mage Armor is a definitively better spell for the caster. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but just something to keep in mind.
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Faolan
Archons of the Spire
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader?
Posts: 93
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Post by Faolan on May 11, 2016 15:45:43 GMT -5
Yeah, anyone could take any skill if they are willing to pay the exp. But that right there is it, exp. Exp is without a doubt the most valuable resource in the game because of the time and dedication required to obtain it along with the cumulative and cross-class costs of skills. That combined with the cost of the magic skills, mages have a much higher exp curve than the other classes before even considering cross-classing. I don't see where cross classing is actually that easy for a mage without seriously impacting their ability to earn the skills that make a mage good. The overall impact to a mage trying to cross-class is much more severe than it is to the other classes. I think if we are not looking at the builds reasonably possible in a class, then we are missing what is causing mages to feel like glass cannons against players who think mages are overpowered. We also miss possible warping effects similar to what was happening with players taking Arcane just because, or characters trying to get all the protections they can. is..<input maxlength="8" size="8">
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Faolan
Archons of the Spire
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Post by Faolan on May 11, 2016 15:55:36 GMT -5
Another thing to think about, in favor of having Mage Armor mimic Protection but applying only to spells: They each take up one aura slot, so unless you can cast the second level on yourself, you can have one or the other active, assuming you have either. If you throw on a Protection, you can take an extra hit which will be nice against most people, but a single spell can still ruin your day. You change it up, though, and put on a Mage Armor? That Death Bolt is a lot less scary, but the archer just got more worrying. The fighter in front of you just got scary. The crazy idiot with the Dane axe is now something you want nothing to do with. It allows players to try to tailor their defenses to the situation, but it would come at the cost of more versatile physical protection. It would also give Witches a reason to ever cast Protection on themselves, since currently Mage Armor is a definitively better spell for the caster. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but just something to keep in mind. I think this would feed back into the "glass cannon" feel. Mages would have to cross class just to get some small measure of safety from the abundance of physicals attacks happening in game. is..<input maxlength="8" size="8">
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blueruby
Order of Starkhaven
Plot Staff
Captain Anne Cash
Posts: 924
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Post by blueruby on May 11, 2016 16:01:18 GMT -5
I think this would feed back into the "glass cannon" feel. Mages would have to cross class just to get some small measure of safety from the abundance of physicals attacks happening in game. Similar to how a warrior, for example, would need to cross-class at the moment to have some small measure of safety from magical attacks. OR they have a friend with the spell they need to cast it on them (a cleric friend for the mage, or a mage friend for the warrior), or they learn to dodge the attacks coming their way, or use the tools they have on hand to defend themselves.
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Post by Archmage Vazra on May 11, 2016 16:24:12 GMT -5
I really don't think you need a block to have a defense against magic. Spells are already easy enough to dodge, even if the thrower has really good aim. Spell block that can't be broken with physical attack is even worse.
Protection blocks a single physical attack, but in an extended melee that's going to be one of many. They simply arent comperable.
I would go so far to say removing mage armor from the game completely is a less drastic hit to mages than letting us cast it on others. Not that I'm suggesting that, I'm still in favor of capping out shatter and acid bolt and maybe a push ward.
I keep hearing the intent isn't to nerf magic, but as an experianced caster, I'm worried that's exactly the outcome we're looking at.
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Faolan
Archons of the Spire
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader?
Posts: 93
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Post by Faolan on May 11, 2016 16:46:13 GMT -5
I think this would feed back into the "glass cannon" feel. Mages would have to cross class just to get some small measure of safety from the abundance of physicals attacks happening in game. Similar to how a warrior, for example, would need to cross-class at the moment to have some small measure of safety from magical attacks. OR they have a friend with the spell they need to cast it on them (a cleric friend for the mage, or a mage friend for the warrior), or they learn to dodge the attacks coming their way, or use the tools they have on hand to defend themselves. Yes, but magic is "rare" in the world of Last Hope so the need to defend against magical attacks would be a concern less often than the need to defend against physical attacks. Save for deathbolt, a warrior is not going to die from a mage's attack, but a mage will certainly die from a warrior's attack. is..<input maxlength="8" size="8">
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Faolan
Archons of the Spire
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader?
Posts: 93
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Post by Faolan on May 11, 2016 17:11:53 GMT -5
Just as a general question - Who has NPC'ed as a mage in past games?
My thought is that players complaining about NPC mages being too powerful isn't so much a comment of the power of Arcane as it is a reflection of the players not able to form a coherent defense. I'm not saying that total explains away the issue though.
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