As we continue to debate and discuss, please keep in mind that I am going to shoot down the "If it aint broke, don't fix it" because Arcane magic has been slated for a final review/balancing since version 1.3 of the rules. Because we focused so heavily on divine magic in 1.4, we wanted to shelf the changes to arcane magic until 1.5 and see how they balanced out with the new divine system. I am very happy with where divine magic is at, but Arcane magic is still due for a balance; it was given a pretty hefty power increase with reactionary push and improved mage armor in 1.3, so now the focus is on arcane magic.
Let me make this perfectly clear... Arcane Magic WILL be getting some changes and tweaks, possibly new spells or alterations to current spells. This is going to happen one way or another, but as stated before the intent is to balance and possibly expand utility of arcane magic, not to nerf it. We may discuss and playtest and find we don't need to change much, but I am guaranteeing there will be some sort of change. The trick is balancing.
Jimmy,
I do agree with you on the cost of cross classing. However, because it is still a possibility in our game, it has to be factord in. If we had hard blocks to skills per class... say for example, if mages simply cannot wear armor, then I could see this being drastically different. But if cross classing can remove or dampen the penalty of something we are trying to balance, that has to be taken into account (and on the flip side too, with warriors taking magic) and what barriers they have to go through to get it.
I used to playtest an arcane knight at practice; medium to heavy armor, a cleaving great sword, and arcane magic. I could push, absorb spells and attacks with mage armor, cleave enemies and shields, and soak up a lot of hits because of my armor. It was very powerful and this possibility does exist in our game world.
I am also going to agree with you that I am not in favor of changing Mage Armor as it stands now. I like that mages are more adept at weaving protection around themselves, something that can absorb spells and physical attacks. This is why I am proposing adding in a Spell Block aura because it finishes the triangle of protection auras... Mage Armor is supreme, self only for mages, and absorbs everything. Protection is physical only and Spell Block is magic only... meaning that you have to choose which attacks you want to try to resist against. A Spell Block does nothing to help someone when arrows are shredding into them, and a Protection spell against enemies weapons and arrows does nothing to help against a mage about to ruin your day with a spell. This allows some neat tactical combinations; a mage may just put up 2 levels of mage armor and be good against the next 2 attacks. Or they could do one mage armor and one spell block.. still protecting against the next attack but having a fall back against spells. This is why I am in favor of an additional spell blocking aura instead of changing Mage Armor, even if there is evidence that shows this could be one of the easiest ways to balance it out.
Drake,
I am going to disagree with you on your statement that something should not be brought in (paraphrasing since I can't juggle views/screens on my phone or copy and paste for crap) "that completyely negates magic." I view this as invalid in relation to the current mechanics of the game... magic in itself is based on a core principle of rendering things ineffective/negating them completely.
Mage Armor - Negates the next attack, physical or magical
Protection - Negates the next physical attack
Shatter - Renders a shield destroyed / useless
Acid - Renders armor destroyed / useless
Stun and Ice Bolt - Renders mobility useless
Death Bolt - Renders player useless/out of the fight
To say that adding an ability or a spell, like Spell Block, is too much because it "Negates the next magic attack" then we need to heavily reevaluate the entire arcane magic system... which I am not in favor of.
You also made comment above "The first thing at an event is everyone is going to get one of these auras put on them"... do you mean like how mages instantly put Mage Armor on and players get Protection spells put on them? That happens now. How do you think an archer feels when a group of players with shields AND protection spells comes after them? Not only do they hold a piece of equipment that heavily degrades the usefulness of arrows (a shield) but they also have an aura that means when they finally get a lucky shot on them, it will be absorbed (variables aside, because yes the protection aura could be popped in combat by others) but it is still valid. If the intitial "Aw crap, they have Spell Block, my magic is *INITIALLY* useless/degraded" statement of a mage is true, I see that no different than an archer feeling the same way seeing Protection spells. Initially, they are effectively protected against archers until there is an effort to remove those defenses (thrown weapons, strikes in combat, or the archer just wittling away at them). If we are going to add to the debate the idea of an enemy "prepping for a fight" and having defenses stacked against magic, then we have to factor in how this influences other aspects of the game as well.
You also replied to Sadie's post that her experience as a mage is irrelevant to the current discussion. How is that even remotely true? I must be reading you wrong, because it is completely relevant. Shiloh is a mage that does not run out and face people one on one, she insteads takes advantage of the power of arcane magic to put it to maximum effect; how it impacts an encounter or fight in order to dish out damage to the enemy from the safety of a group and at the lowest risk to herself. This is entirely relevant... archers are similar to this as well; alone an archer is consistently not much of a challenge. It is too hard to run, knock arrows, line up shots, and take people down when alone. But behind a shield wall, an archer is one of the deadliest roles in the game... but they have some of the strongers counters/negaters in the game (Shields, mage armor, protection, pull arrow, first aid, heavy armor protection). If we balanced an archer one on one in combat and then threw them behind a shield wall with help, they become ridiculously broken. Similar to an archer, a mage needs to be evaluated this way. If we balance a mage to stand toe to toe against everyone and then add them into a group element, this "force multiplier" can get out of control. I've personally witnessed mages in groups dish out devastating damage and attacks on others, so of course this perspective is relevant and has to be reviewed. It is the same way we look at how this balance works with NPCs... most of the time NPCs are outnumbered by the PCs at any given event, this means that it is exponentially easier for PCs to surround and take down NPCs. Heck, even the March 2016 event just recently was a huge challenge to the players (Numbering 35+) with 10 mordok (with only 1 being a caster) that fought them. This is why I continue to reference the "arcane imprint/footprint" on the game being key over the fact of how balnced and "fair" any given mage feels.
Another example... take a look at a dedicated spear fighter. When I run around with my 9 foot spear, I am completely and utterly useless in a single fight. Players run me down, lock me down, and hack me apart. The only thing I can do is run away, attempt to block with an unwieldly 9 foot pole, or draw a dagger and try to defend myself... all of which can be difficult. So does this means we ramp up the effectiveness of a spear? Heck no, it is this way for a reason... because when I take a 9 foot spear into a shield wall, I can literally murder-face from safety and have single-handedly turned the tide of a fight because I can repeatedly attack unopposed from behind my wall. This is the balance of spears... thus the focus of the overall balance of Arcane magic.
A final example similar to this, is that I keep seeing examples brought about "Oh, a mage is useless if someone runs in and gets them, or if they can only push or hit one opponent then their buddies will just rush in and kill the mage." Yes, yes they are... they should be! When I am carting around 50+ lbs of armor and I get rushed by two opponents, I am in a fight for my life. 10 points of armor can go FAST when flanked and my only options are to attempt to fight back hard enough/skilled enough to kill one of them to even the odds, or to run away... while carting around 50 lbs of gear. I don't get any kind of fancy "stun" attack or a "push-like" skill to use. I literally fight, run, or die. And again Ican use an archer as an example... when being attacked by 2 opponents, what chance to they have to "effectively use their skills" without being pummeled to death? This aspect is relevant in our system because it is a fast paced, intense, and "Holy shit no for reals we/I can die" system. Nobody is exempt for it regardless of their equipment, PC skills, player skills, or magic.
== 5/11/16 PLAYTEST REVIEW ==
Last night we did a playtest with magic and I think it went well. It was the first playtest with a few ideas, it was a bit clunky, but it was a good test example. I also disagree with you on this one Drake... I don't think the playtest showed how magic should not be change but instead I think it showed how different it could be and present new situations while still having magic be immensely useful. Below is my full review...
New Stuff Playtested:
Spell Block - 4 mana, able to be cast on anyone, purple spell bead aura. Absorbs the next offensive spell (Push or any of the bolts)
Shield Ward - Pre-cast on a shield, lasts 1 hour. If actively blocking/in front of wearer, an incoming push spell is reduced from a 15 foot back an knock down to a 5 foot back and stagger. Cannot be removed or broken.
9 Knights (2 skill slots for 6 of them; then 2 of them had 3rd level arcane and 1 of them had 3rd level divine). One knight had a Spell Block and another knight had a Shield Ward. Knights did not respawn; when they died they died.
They squared off against 5 goblins. The goblin have 4 warriors with random equipment and 1 mage that had 3rd level arcane. One goblin had a Shield Ward and all the goblins began the fight with spell Block. Goblins could respawn 2 times but after that they were dead and out.
Round 1:
I was a Knight, I decided to be dedicated fighter. 10 points of armor (50 lbs of gear) with a large shield and medium sword, Pull Arrow and Shield Expert. I wanted to be a line fighter.
We start off in a jumble-f*ck but quickly come up with a plan. Some of our warriors will keep a buffer between us and them and allow the mages and the archers to do their jobs. The goblins seemed very disjointed and so did the knights; random little fights broke out. Our mages held back in reserve because the goblins all had spell block on them. This stalled the initial use of magic on our side, but the opposite side (goblins)started flinging spells. From what I saw it was minor, but the magic of one mage was giving us some pause. The mage pulled out a death bolt and shouts of alarm were raised and some knights tried to run away, but the mage threw it too hard and it just barely missed... had it connected, it would have taken out the warrior with a Shield Warded tower shield. The goblin mage came at me with an Acid Bolt and while I called for help, I couldn't do anything because he was protected with Mage Armor (and rushing him would have given him a point blank throw) and I was holding the left flank and couldn't leave. The mage hit me and melted all 10 points of my armor. After that, I actually shucked off my mail and my helm to reduce weight. The fight continued to swirl but was kind of a random melee. Some goblins rushed in and tried to kill the mages, which was somewhat effective due to the spell block not being able to resist them, but what only dealt out a couple points of damage to a mage was a suicide charge because the group hacked them apart. The mages couldn't blast the goblins like normal so they were more vulnerable, but it still cost the goblin their lives to do even a single point of damage. The single most devastating rush to one of mages was actually not effective due to the player running in, not encroaching properly, attacking too quickly once they had the mage in close range, and even hitting the mage in the face at least once. In this instance, the effectiveness of the Spell Block was indeed a factor (the mage tried to use Push to stop the attack) and it was indeed absorbed by the aura, but then it out-of-game became wonky due to encroaching, too many fast attacks, and a solid bonk to the face... which the mage needed a second to recover from anyway, so it was not a good example of how the spell actually could have altered the fight. Maybe the goblin would have hacked the mage apart... or maybe the mage would have drawn a weapon and tried to defend themselves... or maybe the mage would have casted Reactionary Push immediately after the first Push and flung the goblin back because the Spell Block only absorbs one... or maybe the mage would have just run back to the group and survived... it is too hard to tell due to the "Whoa whoa whoa, hold up, head and too close/too fast" influence on that encounter. I was nearby and watched the entire thing happened so I am confident I was able to view it in close detail.
The mages were able to start deploying some magic against the goblins; a few small spells took a few mage armors from the goblin mage and the goblins respawning (who did not have spell block) were pushed a few times. Eventually the goblins died and the Knights won.
From what I saw oof scenario 1, the Spell Blocks did exactly what I thought they would do; give pause to the enemy mages and make being alone dangerous because a charging enemy couldn't be pushed back, making being alone more lethal. I did not see any kind of "complete negation" of arcane magic and instead it seemed to take on a different form, where mages were more selective on what spells were cast or held them in reserve. It definitely prolonged the fight a bit. The Shield Ward on the goblin side didn't seem to be used to much effect, but the spell block was great for balancing. I did not believe it to be overpowered at all because any small spell could pop it and the only time it was detrimental to a mage was when a goblin did a suicide charge and was killed in the process. The goblin mage admitted he was "getting flustered and didn't use his magic as effectively as he wanted"
Scenario 2
We lost a goblin so I switched to the goblin side, and one of our goblins became an mage knight so we switched another fighter. This fight was drastically different than the first. Two goblins with shields (one of them warded)stayed close to the goblin mage and protected him from arrows so he could get close. Early on in the fight, the goblin blew up a knight's large shield. I was skirmishing in lighter armor, so I was running around the flanks. The mages were holding back because I had a spell block on; I could see them wanting to push me but they knew I could absorb the first. A mage ran out and tried to reactionary push me but was not planted with their feet so I called them on it, so the spell was not effective. The goblin mage, behind two large shields, had pushed and flung a few more spells to good effect. The fight swirled for a bit and melee combat took over, with a few knights being hacked apart from the flanks. The knights were in trouble despite their protection spells and tried to hold up in a building. Some goblins were being flung around with push spells but in the tight confines, the goblin with the Shield Ward shield stepped in and took the abuse of the push spells. Push after push after push was absorbed, meaning the mages could barely get any breathing room to recover. This is also when I took a direct role in trying to help the mage, telling him when to use spells and how to get close. He took to it quickly, coming in using teamwork and throwing some spells with devastating effect. After some striking bolts, an acid bolt melting some plate armor, and a few pushes of our own, the knights were in trouble. This is when I was finally hit with my first spell, a push, and I yelled "Block" and removed my beads... I was not close enough to rush in and take advantage of it, but I was able to keep my place in the line. We cut down almost all of them and chase down the last few. The final knight was running around as a skirmisher and our goblin mage ran after him, got within 10 feet, planted his feet, and Reactionary pushed. The knight had on a spellblock and instead of running, he turned and cut the goblin mage to pieces. The goblin mage tried to get off the 2 mana to pay for the spell but died before he could do it... his choice to try to use reactionary push as an offensive blast cost him his life. The mage admitted he didn't notice the purple beads and he didn't run and take the mana backlash wound of the reactionary push, so this was a direct example of how the spellblock cost a mage his life. The fight ended with the final knight being killed. In that battle, despite the Kinghts having 8 people (2 of them 3rd level mages and 1 of them 3rd level divine) the goblins tore them apart. I didn't even need to respawn once and the Spell Block I wore was a great deterant against the opposing mages but when it was finally taken, it was in a standoff that really didn't amount to much. I didn't block a death bolt or do anything major due to me being immune to the first spell. I kind of felt my Spell Block had a "straw death" use that didn't amount to much.
In summary, I was really happy with Spell Block. The initial impact on a fight was great. Yes, a lone mage would have been torn to pieces and the Spell Block could have helped tremendously... but a lone warrior or a lone archer faced the same obstacle. Spells didn't prelude the fight and take out shields or fighters in a single flick of wrist, it was drawn out a bit longer which was something I loved to see. I do *not* like "insta-kill/insta-down" abilities in any LARP. So to see those hampered for a bit at the start was nice. In the first fight, the goblins did not take advantage of this and seemed to lose that edge quickly; they simply died and it was a moot point or some striking bolts/pushes popped up and made them vulnerable to further spells. In fight 2, they had a lot more impact as the Goblins used them to stall the knight mages while our own mage took advantage of it and flew his own spells. The Shield Ward, in my opinion, was too powerful... I initially really liked this idea but in seeing it in practice, it was powerful. Backed into a corner, the mages could not push the Shield Ward goblin out fast enough to do any kind of additional spellcasting, so in that instance it effectively locked down and then ended up leading to the mages demise.
So far, I believe Spell Block worked beautifully and Shield Ward was too powerful. I look forward to more playtesting to get more feedback!
PS - Sadie submitted a fantastic idea to me that I want to playtest... a Counterspell Bolt. Not sure the cost, but let's say 2-3 mana, purple spell bag, if you strike a mage with it, it fizzles any spell held in their hands. Cannot be absorbed my Mage Armor due to its unique property to target the held spell, not the user. So instead of an aura, this would be a spell an Arcane Mage could throw at other mages to fizzle their spells... making active counter-magic a definite role within a group. I love it, I want to playtest it.
Again, thank you everyone for your contributions to the current discussion. We have already hammered out some great ideas and balancing.