Jim, I am not sure what you mean by hit by the nerf bat? 1.0 to 1.1 tweaked the rules back in late 2012 to make Revive, Rejuvenate and Regenerate more balanced. Greater Protection needed to be revamped as it was a last minute addition to the game. 1.1 to 1.2 in early 2013 had some balancing changes but not a whole lot changed. Rejuve and Regen needed balancing because their divine powers made the Trade:Healer skill almost pointless. The intent was never to allow divine casters the ability to be "pocket clerics" where clerics could just pump healing spells into allies to keep them constantly fighting. Last Hope doesn't work that way, as it makes the threat of wounds and death much less meaningful. Clerics now can focus on buffing before a fight, focusing on their main enemy (undead or corruption), and help recover from combat afterwards. We wanted to remove the "I'll stand behind the shield wall and keep casting healing magic" influence of divine casters that some LARPs have.
If there is a specific area of divine magic you want to look at in detail, post it here. Magic is still getting tweaked as we get more feedback
Here is a quick summarized list of v1.3 changes or things being considered. I haven't added in all the ideas from the player discussions so far, but those will be considered as well.
=== SPELLS === CHANGES CONFIRMED: Arcane Ice bolt - Being revised, staggers target for 30 seconds. Target holds ice bolt above head, impervious to damage and cant talk during this time. Divine Sanctuary - Hold gold beads, stagger, no talk, impervious for as long as you can hold the beads up Regen - Will change to 3 mana per wound level
IDEAS: Finger Counting - Possible mechanic for requiring "time" to do spells, involving hand gestures Arcane Mage armor - Stackable, allow one more armor to be applied to self at 3rd lvl arcane Piercing Bolt - Yellow spell, hits like arrow, gives wound. 3-4 mana Spell Block - Either one shot or duration spell soaking buff, self and others Divine Flare/Flash/Stun - similar to push, but stuns target. 1-2 mana Wound Transfer - Caster absborbs all hit and wound damage from target to self Stackable Protection - Possibly able to add 1 more layer of protection on others or maybe only self Close Wound - possible temporary closing/treating of a wound for a battle. Opens again after the fight.
=== SKILLS === CHANGES CONFIRMED: Lore - Changing to 0 exp base, but must pick area... like Lore:Ritual Magic, Lore:Undead, Lore:Warfare etc.
IDEAS: Backgrounds/Resources/Influences - Possibly changing to be more specific, like Lore, but give bonuses in different areas. More impact on influencing factions. Rage - Possible revamp into normal, Improved, Greater. Change to simply timer add ons, possibly +1 hit added for Improved and +1 again for Greater. Remove the "treated mortal wounds no longer impair" rule Professions - Allow people to make money during downtime with their Trades Mana Rage - similar to rage, but channel a Death Bolt and use, move to dying Leadership Skill - Bonuses during fights maybe, but definitely bonus to faction mechanics Brotherhood/some other cool name - Boost to hits or small Rage affect when member of faction falls in combat Pierce - Upgrade allowing 2 handed stabbing weapons the ability to pierce, similar to that of a coreless weapon. Possible change to Pierce mechanic, making it similar to Cleave (Ready attack, announce attack, then swing).
=== COMBAT === CHANGES CONFIRMED: Arrows - Require 2 fletchings, IDV bolts not allowed, possible fleece cover rule to make them legal Cleave - Slight tweak, wind up, announce, then swing. More emphasis on pushing weapon into body/shield does damage. If backed up to wall/structure and block cleave, then damages body Strap Buckler - Adding clause that only BUCKLER sized shields may be strapped and then the hand used to hold/use weapons Break Arrow - Possible slight mechanic change, possible remove need for gambeson. Name change to Pull Arrow Stabbing & Controlling Weapons - Need to revise wording, etc
IDEAS: Arrows vs Heavy Armor - Possible bonus to full heavy armor VS arrows, either degrading them to only damage instead of wounds or allow bonus to break arrow Garment Armor - Possible change to allow up to 2 points of armor for more coverage with garment armor. Starting Hits - Possible change from 2 hits to 1 hit starting (Ulven would go from 3 hits to 2 hits) Arrow Hit on Wounded Limb - Instead of being ignored, this would instead do a point of damage
=== GAME RULES === Cumulative Exp Cap - This will continue raising +1 per skill as normal, but cap at +10. Crossover Exp - More defintion in helping exp, other event exp, and OW exp transfer to NW. Faction Mechanics - Small clause, points to full faction mechanic file Ears/Teeth/Skin - More details on the required blending, realistic prosthetics, and good skin makeup required. Tutuorials & Contract - Define what is needed to play, player contract/waiver/tutorials etc
IDEAS: 3rd PC Slot - Discussion about allowing a 3rd PC slot, how to earn it, if we do it, etc.
That is my master list so far, but I will come back and edit this when I give it a quick look again.
Last Edit: Feb 26, 2014 14:29:25 GMT -5 by Jopper13
I think it would be fun to modify the "Spell Block" to be a buff which would instead allow players to catch spells. If they are able to grab the spell ball out of the air before it touches the ground or makes contact with anything but their hands, they can immediately throw it back. Maybe 4 mana with purple beads wrapped around the wrists, and it stays up until you miss a spell? I don't know how well it would work, but I think it could be interesting.
I'm liking the idea of a "flare"-type spell, 10 foot range like Push, works like a Stun Bolt but with no Stagger? Maybe have it last 5 seconds instead of 10? Hey, that's what play testing is for. As for the stackable protection, I am in favor of it only being able to be cast on yourself. It seems like a few clerics walking around giving their entire group essentially 2 extra points of protection would be unbalanced considering the fairly low number of hits we have in our system. Add in Meditation and if they have some time before the battle, they could really turn the tide too easily at no detriment to themselves (Because they would just replenish the mana spent on the protection through meditation, and have all of it back for the fight, while their team gets a substantial buff during combat).
I think the changes to Lore, and the possible change to Resources will make both of the skills much more useful, and much more utilized, as right now, it's a rather unclear as to what exactly can be done with each, especially resources. It would also help with some of the realism regarding the skill: Morty has resources, which got him the Blue Ruby, but Anne also has resources. Does she have a ship? No, but she does probably have a few relationships due to her past that Morty wouldn't have. Aris might not have Morty's ship, or Anne's history, but he might have some black market connections, etc. It allows the skill to be tailored in a set, specific way to individual characters, which I like a lot.
I would like to see some way for players to make money based on their trade skills out of game, even if it is just a small amount. I don't think it should be automatic, however: having some form of requirement, or risk involved (A healer was exposed to a disease while treating a patient, a blacksmith missed the steel and smashed his hand, an herbalist was ambushed while picking a flower, etc.) that basically would mean that the money would be there, but there would also be a reason to not go out and earn it.
The Leadership skill would be pretty fun, although I feel like there would need to be some prerequisites for it before it could be taken. Maybe even just being the leader of a faction, but the bonus should be relatively small. Perhaps an extra hit as long as the leader is still fighting, or the ability to shrug off the first light wound you would receive.
I like the Brotherhood idea, although I would say that it needs to be a closer bond than just "Members of the same faction", requiring some form of plot reasoning as to why these two are so close, and having it only apply to that one other character. Maybe Rhodi sees Raskolf fall in combat and throws himself into the fray to save his brother, or Anne snaps because Morty just dropped, and rushes over to defend her captain. Having it basically trigger a rage ability where the person raging ignores all hits but also progresses to Dying after their rage is over is what I sort of imagined when the idea was first presented to me. I think it would be another great thing to get to play test at practice one of these weeks.
I think for a 2-handed Pierce that additional training and testing would be required, but the potential is certainly there. I don't know how I feel about changing the Pierce announcement: It worked fantastically for Cleave, but these are kind of different beasts here. Again, that's what play testing is for. Thinking more about it, though, having an Out-of-Combat mechanic similar to Waylay for Pierce would be a lot of fun. It would require a coreless dagger pressed against an unarmored location on the Torso, a hand on the shoulder, and probably the stabber to vocalize "Assassinate" or something similar, which would progress the stabbee to a Mortal chest wound. "Assassinate" is a four syllable word that takes a while to say, and if that contact can be broken during the attempt, it simply fails. The word is long enough that anyone who is paying attention should be able to move away in time, or they will be restrained and would be unable to move anyway.
As for the Strap Buckler, I thought this was already a rule. If not, it really should be.
For the Arrows vs. Heavy Armor, I stand by what I said on the Armor Updates thread: Heavy armor shouldn't nerf arrows that much. I could understand an approved gambeson under at least Medium Armor providing a certain amount of "Arrow Armor" as long as the character still has armor points left, but the drop in efficiency for archers from a Medium armored target, where I can drop them in two shots, to a Heavily armored one, where it will now take 10+ is a little too much. I would still be in support of arrows having to chip away at hits, ignoring armor because it makes sense to me that Harlok could push through a few more pointy sticks than a mage who has spent her life avoiding combat could.
I think Garment Armor being able to provide an extra point of Armor up to 2 total is a good thing. If someone takes the time to pad all of their extremities, and their torso (And possibly their head), they're going to be a little better protected than someone who covers their chest and their upper arms. I feel like it would either need to be ALL locations covered, or all minor locations and the Torso (So not the head) covered to get that second point.
The starting hits would be interesting, and would definitely lead to bloodier battles. Again, I'm not sure how exactly I feel about this, but it's definitely something to take a look at.
Arrow Hit on a Wounded Limb: THIS. THIS. DEAR GOD THIS. I love this. I have had so many people block arrows with wounded limbs because in the rules, it does nothing. In reality, that would hurt like hell. The area is already sore from the wooden shaft sticking out of it, so adding another one wouldn't be painless. Even having to chip through armor when hit in the same limb would be fine, but just something to keep people from hiding behind their wounds that in reality, they would and should be protecting.
Cumulative XP cap: I like it. Sure, it's harder to teach an old dog new tricks, but at a certain point, it could take a year for a player to pick up a new ability, and that's just not as much fun. I also think, though, that players should have the option of capping their characters: basically saying "I have all the skills I need and want and make sense for this character to have." Once that happens they could no longer buy skills, and could possibly earn some other form of resource (an extra few silver at registration or something) instead of exp. I feel like the current system almost punishes players for remaining true to their character, because your PC is still showing up to events, and gaining exp that is spendable only on themselves, but because you don't want any other skills, that's all wasted now. Even if the player could earn NPC exp for playing their PC after capping them, I feel like it would help encourage players to not branch out into trees their character reasonably would not venture down.
Faction Mechanics have their own thread that I've been trying to weigh in on periodically, so I don't really feel the need to do so again here.
The ears, teeth, and skin should be addressed in the Tutorials and Contract sections, which I feel should be reviewed on a more regular basis. Not to say people aren't following them, but having that reminder every six months instead of every year would just help keep things fresh in peoples' minds. I know I forget a lot after a year.
Last Edit: Feb 26, 2014 16:59:21 GMT -5 by blueruby
There isn't anything in that list I can knock at first glance, if I have any thoughts I'll post em here.
As for the divine nerf bat, I see you point, but it seems like the pendulum has swung a bit too far towards buffing and away from healing. I don't have a copy of the original divine rules but I remember it was something like this: lvl 1 revive, lvl 2 light wounds/hp's and lvl 3 mortal wounds. I have no idea what the mana costs were, I just looked at the rules in my book when I needed em. I do remember I had plenty at lvl 2 divine for 75% of cases.
If the reason for the changes is to keep a revolving door combat from starting, why not say that a cleric can heal a person, hp's or wounds or whatever, once, and then a doc needs to look at at em. This keeps clerics important, as their healing could be done cheaply and on the fly, but the healing skill is also important as it's necessary for repeated wounds.
I do agree that the undead/corruption are divine magics main foes at the moment, but divine magic has been around far longer then the undead invasion. Some options to make a cleric better at healing/utility/buffing vs undead killing/purifying would be cool, and allow for more character diversity. I'll post specific spell ideas when my phone isn't on a 15% charge.
I also really like the "healed for a combats duration but wounds then reopen" idea. I like that a lot.
Original LH Player Founded the Order
Characters Aedan Von Horst: Warrior Priest of the Order
Divine magic has been shifted towards buffing/utility with a slower/costly healing side. The reasoning behind it was balance, to keep the revolving door fight potential minimized and to make the Healer trade useful. In the beginning and even now, the divine cleric is a better healer than a Healer, and it takes more time and effort to be a Healer. This is an angle I have wanted to tweak into balance and it is still taking time, but perhaps the difference between the two can be that Clerics can heal in the field but it is time intensive or minimal in use, where Healer's can heal to full but it takes the patient time and not as much the Healer. If we bring in the Close Wound spell, that opens up some possibilities... Clerics could use divine magic to patch people together long enough to get them to a healer, or take the slow/long process to Regenerate wounds. This entire aspect of the game really needs to be analyzed and balanced, so it may make a few changes as we tweak it and such. The new meditation rules being easier and the normal way to get mana back opens up new possibilities for casters too, so that needs to be taken into account. My goal is to make divine magic useful for defense, buffing and healing but NOT a critical/game changing component or one able to make combat last forever. Any ideas in this area are appreciated.
As for the respec in relation to the skill cumulative cap of 10, I am not sure what you mean? The penalty isn't a 10 skill cap, it just caps the penalty your character must pay. For example, I will detail out a high level warrior below. Armor Prof: 0 cost + 0 cumulative cost Improved Armor: 0 cost + 1 cumulative cost Shield Prof: 0 cost + 2 cumulative cost Improved Shield Prof: 0 cost + 3 cumulative cost Shield Expert: 5 cost + 3 cumulative cost = 8 total Toughness: 5 cost + 4 cumulative cost = 9 total Improved Toughness: 5 cost + 5 cumulative cost = 10 total Greater Toughness: 10 cost + 6 cumulative cost = 16 total True Grit: 5 cost + 7 cumulative cost = 12 total First Aid: 5 cost + 8 cumulative cost = 13 total Mend: 5 cost + 9 cumulative cost = 14 total Break Arrow: 10 cost + 10 cumulative cost = 20 total Archery: 0 cost + 10 cumulative cost (in current system this would be 11 cost) = 10 total Thrusting: 0 cost + 10 cumulative cost (in current system this would be 12 cost) = 10 total Improved Rage: 10 cost + 10 cumulative cost (in current system this would be 13 cost) = 20 total So on and so forth. This doesn't cap your skills at ten but instead stops penalizing you for the cumulative cost higher than ten. This means veteran players will get a slight kickback in exp if they have taken a lot of skills, but doesn't require a respect since we didn't limit skills or remove them.
There is going to be some heavy emphasis on supporting skills such as Lore, Resources, Influences etc that will be important for players to consider too. If a player is "to the point where they no longer want to take any more skills" then they can consider these, as they will have event specific bonuses or faction based bonuses that could be beneficial. I am going to be looking at this angle as well.
Last Edit: Feb 27, 2014 10:26:00 GMT -5 by Jopper13
For the skill respec I meant because I know I've gone past the 10 xp cap, and I'm sure other people have as well. A xp "refund" makes sense though, okie dokie. I would include a blurb about the possibility of the cap going up once a player gets to advanced skills. Assuming those are ever a thing.
The balance makes sense, but at this point I think the mana costs/spell lvl's is a bit slanted. Not being able to heal light wounds till divine three is harsh, and not even getting hp healing at lvl 1 is even worse. It basically means ya can't effectively heal till lvl 3.
What about having hp healing/ at lvl one, light wounds at 2 and mortal wounds at 3?
Original LH Player Founded the Order
Characters Aedan Von Horst: Warrior Priest of the Order
Another option would be to have clerics choose a "speciality" that their character follows, let's say "healing" and "combat" for now.
The healing speciality reduces the mana cost for healing spells and lowers the level they're gained at by 1, so regeneration at lvl 2. For lvl 3 they get the transfer all damage spell that's being talked about. For the downside it loses the anti undead spells.
The combat speciality keeps healing magic as is, protection applies to spells as well and gets the paralyze spell Tim tested at the pnp adventure he ran at midwinter at lvl 3. It loses the speak with dead spell and the flare spell being talked about.
Original LH Player Founded the Order
Characters Aedan Von Horst: Warrior Priest of the Order
I do like the idea of caping the number of skills that effect skill costs. It keeps players who are more advanced from stagnating completely simply for having spent points. Coupling that with expansions of non-combat related skills it's an exciting change. Players won't be encouraged to avoid those "less important" to survival non-combat skills because they're worried about cost.
I like the brotherhood idea, I have been pushing for it for some time. My thought is if you take the skill you name two people in your faction or one not in your faction that you trigger off of. (Stanrick would rage off harlock, or rayan falling but not thrand) so name two PCs if you want to add other players it would cost additionanale 5xp per faction member or 10xp for a non faction member (Selena is not a longfang but he would be just as likely to trigger off her as he would his family) the price for extra PCs dose not go up like skills do.
Stanrick Longfang, Chieftain of Pack Longfang - Ulven
UPDATE: We were able to do some play testing on a few things and some staff and heralds had a long sit-down and discussed some new skill ideas and mechanics.
Stun/Flare/Etc - Divine Spell This is seen as fairly reasonable, but actually tends to be more combat effective as an offensive attack. Push knocks someone back but does not damage, usually getting them far enough away from the fight to be attacked directly. Stun, on the other hand, basically allows you to line up a guaranteed shot on your opponent as they stumble around. We are going to play test a Flare spell that divine casters can prime in their hands and use 3 times and it allows them to "knockback" an opponent (same affect as if you blocked a cleaving attack)
Spear Pierce - Combat This seems balanced. It can be powerful if lined up properly but it is very hard to land a solid hit on an opponents limbs in combat, but the threat of it works out quite well. Players will have to accept the fact that this may be difficult for players to notice in the thick of combat. So far it has play tested well.
Wound Transfer - Divine Spell We found all sorts of ways to break the hell out of this, so this ability will either be scrapped entirely or turned into "Sacrifice", which would basically be "Divine Rage". In theory, you could absorb all of your target's damage into your torso, basically dropping your Hits to 0, giving yourself a Mortal Wound to the chest, and immediately going to Dying. This could be tweaked to allow you a variable affect based on the mana you spend to do it. If you spend 10 mana and cast it, you only go to Mortally wounded. If you spend 2-3 mana you, you go to Dying, and if you are out of mana you can still cast this spell but it kills you at the end. This spell still has potential, but it must be more lethal/have more finality to it in order to balance it out.
Close Wound / Divine Aid - Divine Spell This is basically going to be the equivalent of Divine First Aid. This spell will treat a wound, allowing the player to then get it healed or Regenerated, but it will be based off of divine magic instead of bandages and first aid supplies. This allows clerics without first aid to treat wounds and interact with them by spending mana, but still makes it worth taking first aid so that it can be done without spending mana on the wounds. We will most likely bring back the gold and silver ribbons into divine magic specifically for this spell, which means you would wrap the wounded location in silver for light wounds and gold for mortal wounds to "treat" them. This will count as a treated location, which will also take up 1 of the 2 "treatments" that a location can take. For example, a player with a bandage on their left arm could then have a ribbon attached to it but then could receive no further treatments, because that limb has been treated 2 times. This will most likely be 2-3 mana for light wounds and 3-4 mana for mortal wounds. Another possible idea is to just allow the cleric to use bandages just like first aid, so the physical representation for a treated wound is the same across the board.
Rage (Skill) There has been favorable feedback so far about altering rage into a Normal/Improved/Greater tiered skill. We will most likely be removing the "still gain use of treated mortal wounds" aspect of Improved Rage (since there could be a lot of confusion... bloody bandage = disabled limb) and simply adding in more hits. Since rage is a "You must move to dying to use" ability, it is literally useless unless your character is in real danger of dying. The passive ability of +1 Hit would represent the ability to push through physical harm because of your rage and anger. This means that a character could make a traditional Berserker (Bear-skin, usually wearing light armor and animal furs, lore says they could not be harmed by weapons) and take additional hits without needing to don tons of armor. I feel this is a good balance. The Rage timer would increase by 5 seconds per level with the +1 hit bonus only being Improved and Greater. This makes a fighter be able to take more abuse but would be an immense exp sink, but allow players to become powerful warriors. Also, to clarify Shana's point, some people have been using rage incorrectly... it is supposed to be used when you are mortally wounded, which is how it is written in the rule book. Using Rage is not to be taken lightly, as it means you WILL progress to Dying. Idea#1 Rage - 10 exp, 10 second rage timer Improved Rage - 10 exp, +5 to rage timer, +1 hit, Prerequisite: Toughness, Rage Greater Rage - 10 exp, +5 to rage timer, +1 hit, Prerequisite: Improved Toughness, Improved Rage
Sap (Skill) There has been some discussion about possibly adding an affect to Sap that allows players with the Pierce ability to inflict a wound on a torso if they catch a target off guard. So they would "Waylay" an opponent through a helmet to knock them out or "Pierce" a torso to inflict a wound. Not sure how to balance it yet... I don't want to make all these new calls and mechanics, I want it to be simple and easy. Another option is to allow Sap to bypass armor on Waylay and Pierce abilities, making a rogue with Sap able to knock a player out even if they wear a helmet or pierce a limb even if they have armor. We would change the skill from "Sap" to something else, something easy to speak when trying to Waylay or Pierce someone. I am not sure what to call it yet... but something like saying "Through" after the word might work. If a player with Pierce and Sap come up to an armored opponent and placed a coreless dagger on their armored limb and said "Pierce" it would do nothing, but saying "Pierce Through" is quick, easy, and tells their opponent it bypasses armor. It has potential... any ideas?
Brotherhood We discussed this skill at length, in various forms. We found some very easy ways to break the hell out of the game with this. Some alterations to the effect were discussed but in general, this skill is not well received. I have been very leery about allowing any kind of "intra-Rage" or simply a rage you can do in the middle of combat that does not take you to Dying. This can be all sorts of confusing, whether it would be neat or not. We are considering bringing in a Rally skill, something that brings back a point of hit or something, but it needs testing, so this aspect of the skill could be captured (kind of) in something like that. I have to be very careful not to bring in too many "gamey" mechanics and instead find creative ways to reuse things.
Divine Specialty This was considered a while ago but dropped, simply because we felt it was unnecessary. Divine magic is balanced enough that it doesn't matter too much if a combat cleric or a healing cleric can cast the same spells. The real balance is what you put your mana into... if you buff your party with Protection spells, you are aiding your group in a defensive way. If you hold your mana and use it to Close Wounds and heal, then you fulfill the healer role. I think specialties like this make more sense in tabletop RPG, but we wanted the classes to be a lot more streamlined in Last Hope.
Regenerate Change With the addition of Close Wound, this scale will be altered a bit. Low level clerics will probably be more about buffs and closing wounds, where higher level stuff will be about actual healing. Reg might be split into Regenerate and Improved Regenerate, allowing lvl 2 clerics to Regen light wounds and level 3 to regen mortal wounds. This system is getting a bit of a tweak.
More ideas and changes to follow!
Last Edit: Mar 3, 2014 14:15:46 GMT -5 by Jopper13
Push (Spell) There has been some discussion on how to modify the Push spell, as well. There are a few ideas floating around that I want to play test. We are adding a new spell called Spell Block (absorbs the next spell to hit you) and possibly allowing the Weaver trade to cast Mage Armor on other people (instead of just their self) so there will be a little bit of a defense against Push magic. Improved Push - Cast two mana, you may "prime" push like a bolt, allowing you to walk with the spell ready Greater Push - Cast two mana, you may cast a Push spell with each hand (2 total). You must use the second Push spell immediately
Pierce (Skill) I already detailed the 2 handed spear pierce update, but we could even expand on this and allow other weapons to pierce with this ability. We have allowed smaller Cleaving weapons to Cleave and larger weapons to Dual Wield with, so Improved Pierce would allow you to pierce with swords and other weapons. Because the stabbing motion is not in full speed, there is far less of a concern of the thrusting tip of a weapon injuring someone during a fight. With this skill, you could get in close with you opponent and disable a limb by placing the tip of your weapon on their unarmored limb, pressing into them, announcing pierce, then pulling the weapon back. Basically, Pierce would be "you can do the Pierce mechanic with coreless daggers and two handed spears" and Improved Pierce would be "you can add swords, javelins, and pointed weapons to the weapons you may pierce with". We will play test this as well.