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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 21:36:46 GMT -5
As for spell casting and shields: I've always assumed in the Last Hope setting, the movements to cast a spell are precisely as intricate as described. We've always held to a standard of treating things as they are physically presented; "What you see is what you get", as Ryan says. That seems to me the answer to the question of both casting with in cold weather and with shields. If you can complete the motion with a shield, then clearly it isn't a hindrance to spell-casting. I strongly agree with this sentiment, however in 1.3 "Bucklers and small shields can be strapped to a forearm and used in conjunction with other weapons and items held in the hands. An example could be a small shield worn on a forearm of a spear fighter or an archer using a bow and arrow but having a buckler strapped to their arm. Only shields with 2 cleave hits can be used like this, shields larger than this cannot be strapped to an arm and then the hand used to hold a weapon for fighting." This means that archery can not be used with shields larger then a buckler, I would assume the same would go for magic. I would love to see this changed in 1.4 as I suspect the "spirit" of the rule is related to what players would actually be able to do with the equipment they are fielding.
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Post by stanrick on Mar 27, 2015 3:29:42 GMT -5
Im with drake on the question about PvP. I know it is not against the rules but we should clarify if we want the over all feel to be PvP or PvE
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Faolan
Archons of the Spire
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader?
Posts: 93
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Post by Faolan on Mar 27, 2015 6:18:01 GMT -5
This might be straying away from the rules revision slightly and into general feedback, but I've been thinking about events starting behind schedule and how that process might be streamlined, and one of the roadblocks I've noticed from the player side seems to be skills, xp, and miscellaneous issues at check in. I don't know the feasibility of this, but perhaps some of those issues could alleviate if that database was available for players to view somewhere, to check their current skills or sort any confusion out between events. Yes, it would mean a ton of extra questions, but each of those would be one not asked twenty minutes after the game was supposed to begin. I agree with this. Maybe use something like a google drive spreadsheet and share it on the wiki as view-only. And if we are worried about player privacy or metagaming, we could assign players random IDs to use on the spreadsheet. We should still be able to use this spreadsheet at check-in even without internet access, and then once the laptop gets back on a wifi network the spread sheet on the wiki would automatically update.
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Faolan
Archons of the Spire
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader?
Posts: 93
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Post by Faolan on Mar 27, 2015 13:31:18 GMT -5
Right now a new character only starts with the ability to use a one-handed weapon, but not a shield. I feel like this isn't quite right, as I imagine any peasant would have the wherewithal to put a piece of wood between them and an attacker (maybe more so than the peasant would know what to do with a sword). It seems like the shield expert skills should be more about how punishment you can put you're shield through. For example, the peasant might just throw up shield and have it take the full brunt of the attack, but someone trained in how to really fight with a shield would now how to let the force of the attack roll off their shield and thus allowing there shield to last longer in battle. With that then, the first level of shield expert would give the shield one more cleave to break it, then the second level would give one more on top of that. Or something like that.
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Post by Archmage Vazra on Mar 28, 2015 11:34:37 GMT -5
While I agree strictly on a basis of realism most people could use any weapon or shield (as players, we're clearly demonstrating such), that would cause a lot of issues in game, and completely defeat one of the great advantages to playing a warrior. Perhaps anybody could grab a shield and without the proficiency simply consider every attack a cleave, but that seems unnecessarily complicated. Honestly, I think for gameplay balance it's best the way it is.
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Post by Archmage Vazra on Apr 13, 2015 12:25:59 GMT -5
Random thought of the day: I find it odd that Mend and Improved Mend actually cost more XP total then Trade - Blacksmith, I realize they're slightly quicker but they're also far less effective. The relationship between the two seems bizarre in both gameplay balance and reasoning. Either the blacksmith is for some reason less qualified to do a quick fix, or the menders are paying more XP for a lesser level of skill. Perhaps the XP cost of Blacksmith could be reduced to either 10 or 5 but require at least basic mend as a prerequisite? Or the cost of improved mend could be reduced slightly?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 12:37:52 GMT -5
Being a smith and having had to actually repair my own armor in the field, I can tell you that these skills are not related.
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Post by Jopper13 on Apr 16, 2015 21:15:25 GMT -5
There were a few more changes fir consideration I had on my list. Sorry if some of these are already posted, I have a bunch of lists going on.
Possible change to mana amounts, making each level of magic have a base of 3 mana instead of 4, then making Mana Reserves bump up from 3 mana to 4 mana. Widens the gap between "magic talent/potency" and "mana storage/battery"
Put a cap on mana being transferred by Mana Transfer (already discussed in previous area.
Changes to a few more skills, mainly in what is class skill or not (add thrusting to Rogues, remove improved shield for clerics, remove armor prof for mages, remove True Grit requisite for pull arrow,change or remove respite, remove toughness for mages, remove improved toughness for rogues)
Possibly remove Sacrifice divine spell or tweak it to be more of a lesser wound syphon effect.
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Post by Archmage Vazra on Apr 17, 2015 8:00:10 GMT -5
I really hope not, I'll be honest: these changes seem really hard on Mages. It already takes a really long time to gain any workable amount of mana, the advantage to the old system was you could kind of get away with just a couple skills, whereas now you would certainly need both magic and multiple levels of reserves to even cast a couple spells. On top of that taking away their armor? Seems really harsh, magic was not that powerful to begin with. I'd sooner suggest bringing both up to 4, once a mage has burned through their mana (which even capped out only takes a couple easy-to-avoid spells) they're essentially useless, and unless they pay through the nose cross-classing, they don't get much else to fall back on.
Respite seems like it could be a 0 xp skill, it doesn't have the biggest impact and all you're really doing is relaxing for a bit.
I'm totally in favor of removing the true grit requirement for pull arrow. Archery is bloody deadly.
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Post by Jopper13 on Apr 17, 2015 13:04:38 GMT -5
The mana change idea is a drastic one, but the mana totals are the same unless you plan on attempting to cross into witch. Good feedback though, so far the idea is mixed, but it gets kind of ridiculous how much mana people are can get if they get the skills. The balancing of it is what I am looking for... if it is ungodly for an exp cost then it makes sense, but I haven't delved into it that far yet.
As for the armor proficiency, the skill allows you to wear up to Chainmail armor for a 0 level skill. That becomes 5 (or 4 if you are human) which seems balanced to me based on the fact that someone schooled in magic may need to put a bit more effort into learning how to effectively use armor. It doesn't make it impossible, but I think it balances it a bit. With the fact that Garment armor allows you 1 armor point if you have the torso and 2 minors or 2 armor points if you have torso and 8 minors covered, a mage could get 1-2 armor points with no need to have a skill. This allows some leeway but makes the armor skill be a bit harder to learn.
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Post by stanrick on Apr 19, 2015 15:57:46 GMT -5
I like most of the changes you sugested but not the number of mana per level I feel if we put a cap on transfer that will solve a lot of our magic issues. I don't know what I feel about sacrifice
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Faolan
Archons of the Spire
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader?
Posts: 93
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Post by Faolan on Apr 20, 2015 19:17:54 GMT -5
This does seem kind of harsh on mages specifically. Magic already takes bit of XP to get into, and now adding to that cost, just for mages, cross-classing just to have maybe 6/7 points of armor instead of 2 is going to push a lot of new characters into Clerics or out of magic completely. If someone schooled in magic needs to put a bit more effort into learning how to effectively use armor, then armor should be cross-class for all magic users regardless of how you choose to channel mana. Mages already take a "penalty" with wearing armor - you usually don't want paulrons (or even a breast plate or helm at times) so that you can proper throw spell bags. Having Improved Armor as cross-class for magic users seems fair and realistic (I see moving from leather/chainmail to plates as pretty drastic).
Also, at least with the changes to Divine being discussed in the other thread its coming from the idea that its broken/overpowered and needs a fix. What are we trying to fix in arcane? Are we just making changes for the sake of making changes? Especially when it comes to changing XP costs and whats cross-class for who, that on its own is going to introduce issues. So I think that any changes like that to the rules need to be focused on addressing/fixing problems in the game. If there is something inherently broken about spell casters being able to wear basic armor, then fine it needs to be changed.
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Post by Jopper13 on Apr 21, 2015 13:12:19 GMT -5
Some of these ideas may seem quite large, and some indeed may be quite a bit of a difference from where the rules are currently. I wanted to explain here something that was important to me that Last Hope was founded on, and that is the intent of a lower fantasy setting. This does not necessarily mean that magic is being downplayed, but that it's commonplace/overuse was never quite intended to be where it is today. In a larp, it can be difficult to really portray some of the magical effects that could exist in the game. One way to show that is to limit it or change it so the effects fit the lore and also fit the immersion, with an effect that isn't jarringly difficult to produce. Take a look at Lord of the Rings for example, or Game of Thrones. Both involve magic but it's use is not thrown around willy nilly. Casting magic is a big deal, and usually comes at a price. That was always the intent of Last Hope's magic system... to make casting magic kind of a big deal. When a cleric uses magic to close wounds or a mage sends enemies flying with push spells, that is not commonplace.... that is amazing, that is wondrous... And it should be a bit more rare. I think we as a gamer group have been so indoctrinated in the "table top and MMO" environment that it is difficult to see that being a spell caster sometimes has nothing to do with being balanced, fair, or easy. Why is magic expensive, a bit unbalanced and sometimes a pain in the ass? Because it was always meant to be that way. Magic is wondrous and I always want it to feel that way in Last Hope. Flicking your wrist to shatter an enemies shield or communicating with your god to use that energy to heal wounds (even partially) is a big deal. Another angle to look at is that a cleric does not *have* to revolve heavily on magic, and could instead be a healer and have access to prayers of faith and extensive knowledge. A mage does not *have* to be all about blowing up things with magic but could instead utilize knowledge to figure out puzzles or look into historical texts and find useful bits of lore. Mages and Clerics have *access* to magic but they don't *have* to take magic skills. To me it makes perfect sense that the training and skill needed to weave raw magical energy into wondrous effects shouldn't be easy to do. As the game has progressed over the years it seems to have taken on more and more magic and I am making a bigger effort to balance it in coordination with the foundational goal of magic in Last Hope from day 1 back in 2011. I know this may put some players at odds with some of these changes, but in the long run the balance should be well worth it. When I overheard players mention they were going to cross class into magic "because I can" or "why wouldn't you? Magic is super powerful" and "it is only 9 exp to get arcane so I get mage armor and push" I knew that was a problem. That wad never the game I intended Last Hope to be. This isn't a game about min/maxing our PCs so they are super powerful, it is a larp about telling a story and taking our characters on journeys and experiencing what our game world has to offer. Myself and others working on this revamp are trying to consider all of the ideas presented and look at it objectively, and a good number of the staff and heralds also have a decent number of characters that get altered by these changes as well... so bear with us as we keep going on this path, and I assure you that the quality of role play will still be there at the end, regardless of the final exp costs and skill progressions. Thank you, and keep the ideas coming!
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Faolan
Archons of the Spire
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader?
Posts: 93
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Post by Faolan on Apr 21, 2015 14:16:07 GMT -5
I think at least part of the answer to "cross-class into mage because I can" is with those ciphers and such that people have to figure out in order for each level. I think that definitely adds to the feel that magic is supposed to be something special. Even having it so that any player that wants their character to take a level of Arcane has to figure out a cipher (mage character players might get an "easier" cipher compared to cross-classing characters). And making harder for a mage to survive a battle, if they make that unfortunate mistake of getting into one, isn't going to stop people from cross-classing into Arcane. If anything its going to drive more people to do exactly that. A mage doesn't have to be all about blowing up things with magic, but with the spells available to a mage thats kind of the direction they are pushed (haha, puns). Verses a cleric where many of the spells they have access to would naturally lead them to take on more of a healer role. If we want the mages to be more focused on puzzles, research, and lore then maybe we should reconsider the mages' spellbook. Weed out some of the offensive spells like the striking bolt series or acid bolt and give them more utility spells like a Scry (I think weaver might already have this) or something similar to Soul Speak (stretching for comparison here) where a mage can "read" the magical properties, if any, of an item.
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Post by ClypeumLegis on Apr 21, 2015 16:23:21 GMT -5
I'm seeing the getting rid of offensive spells here, and I'm a little scared of that, to be honest. The mage, in my opinion, doesn't really need to be changed a whole lot. I can see the part about armor proficiency being cross class, and the mana changes maybe, but not the spellbook. It might, if the spellbook changes are something that becomes a popular idea, perhaps add spells of that research/scrying aspect, but keep the current spells as well. That way a player can choose the type of Mage that they might want to make as opposed to being restricted to a more subdued Mage that might not let them enjoy their role as much.
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