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Post by stanrick on Feb 24, 2014 14:54:00 GMT -5
why would aedan wast mana with doing push? use it up and then no push. and its not like it would keep a rageing mordok back so there is a easy loop hole to keep it in check. maybe add a cool down to push? or can only do so many? I really see no way devine push brakes game. and I want aeden to be able to cast push.
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Post by ungrim123 on Feb 24, 2014 16:34:02 GMT -5
This is how Aedan breaks push...guy has big shield defending a clothie, and my flail doesn't cleave. Right now I'd have to wear down the defending guy...if I got push I'd just cast it on the defender, and go after the clothie.
Or if I saw a Mage with an acid/cleaving bolt coming after me I'd cast push on em.
Don't get me wrong, the power gamer in me would LOVE Aedan to have push...but I don't think giving any front line combat cleric that ability is good for the game. Now granted, it's possible to get it right now it the rules with witch magic. It would take a metric f-ton of xp to get there, so at least there's that.
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blueruby
Order of Starkhaven
Plot Staff
Captain Anne Cash
Posts: 924
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Post by blueruby on Feb 24, 2014 18:37:41 GMT -5
At which point if the mage doesn't either run or push you in return (if you push their defender), or have a Mage Armor active to soak up that push while they're casting their more powerful spell, they honestly deserve to get wrecked.
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Post by ungrim123 on Feb 24, 2014 21:57:59 GMT -5
Or maybe the more powerful spell they cast against me missed?
For me it all comes down to game balance, and I don't think divine push is. Push is overused/overpowered as it is, and giving it to even more people will do nothing to help the game.
I don't want combat to be even more dominated by push then I've already seen. If clothie clerics need a combat spell, give em a stagger effect.
If nothing else they can always join a group of burly meat shields and use their friends to protect them.
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Post by stanrick on Feb 25, 2014 21:33:49 GMT -5
I hate to say it but from the sounds of what your saying it seems to me that devine push really equals out nicely and helps balance the game. power gamers will do what ever they can to brake the game with what is already out there. push dose no damage if anything it will just make the fight longer after all Aedan would have to put down his weapon and shield to use push. if anything I see that as a hinderance to Aedan. push knocks you back 15 feet you fall down get back up you have to get with in 10 feet to use it. mid rage? dose nothing the rageing opponent is just fighting and ignores all attacks as they rage. that means you just droped your shield to push someone who is not going to be affected. Devine push dose not brake the game it gives the clarics not coverd in 10 ap with a tower a chance to run. guess what they need that. anyone who is going to power game and try to brake the game by haveing devine and useing push will take the witch skill and guess what then they have all the spells anyway. so what keeps them from doing it? being syndar or a male ulven. push brakes nothing
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Post by ungrim123 on Feb 26, 2014 6:52:33 GMT -5
Why would drop my shield? If I can divine push I'll just turn it sideways and hold the haft of my flail in my teeth while transferring the mana.
Witch magic is an entirely different matter. That skill opens up all kids of shenanigans, the only thing balancing it is that only a female Ulven could make the case (at least to me).
If divine needs a buff it needs to get back it's healing abilities at decent costs.
There is nothing wrong with asymmetric class balancing. I don't mind that I have no defense against Mages.
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Post by ungrim123 on Feb 26, 2014 9:49:50 GMT -5
I'm also going to throw this thought out there, and I'm sure it's gonna piss people off...just hear me out. The people that are seeing this are mature enough to deal with it, as the pissing off isn't the intent or the point.
Why should the game change because of peoples character choices?
I decided to make a heavily armored character, in a game where archery and acid bolt laugh at armor and cleaving bolt smashes my shield. Which spell do I think is overpowered? Push.
Push is a pain in the ass, and it's overused. Used correctly it could be a game changer in combat, but I'm not the one it would be devastating against. Acid and cleaving bolt or archery have been responsible for every instance, save one, where Aedan had serious issues in combat.
That one instance was being surrounded by Mordok, back to back with Kragen Bloodmoon. Getting wrecked in that fight is one of my favorite LH moments btw.
Anyway, knowing about those threats to Aedan, I do what I can to minimize them. I roll with a balanced group when I can, my shield and situational awareness work pretty well. However, the best defense Aedan would have against those spells would be Mage armor and push. In the rules I could take witch magic and then arcane after a few events, or when I rebuilt him with the updated rules...but I didn't, and never will. It doesn't fit the character. Period.
I'm purposely deciding to make my character weaker. It sucks, but it is what it is.
Every class has built in strengths and weakness, and sometimes character choices negate those strengths. All we can do is deal with them.
I agree that divine one needs some kind of defensive spell, but the idea that a clothie cleric character would be screwed without it is simply not true.
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blueruby
Order of Starkhaven
Plot Staff
Captain Anne Cash
Posts: 924
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Post by blueruby on Feb 26, 2014 11:32:44 GMT -5
I understand that a spell doesn't have to do damage to be damaging. I really do. It can slow people down, open up gaps in their defense, allow you to slip past them and attack their allies, etc. What I don't understand, though, is how you believe Push is going to be over-used and over-powered if given to clerics. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying I don't see a situation in which giving a cleric Push is any more broken than giving it to a Mage, and I want you to help me understand. Give me a situation. From watching people fight at practices every week, as well as at several events, Push is almost always used to buy the caster a little more time, or give them a chance to run away, or give them one less attacker to worry about for a few seconds. How is that going to change if Clerics have the spell as well?
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Post by Jopper13 on Feb 26, 2014 11:46:31 GMT -5
Actually, I would like to clarify that Push is one of the BEST weapons against a raging player. Jake is incorrect, Rage does not allow you to ignore push, it sends you flying as normal. Rage allows you to ignore damage, not spells, so the best way to stop a raging player is to make them eat up their rage timer by staggering them with bolts or pushing them. I honestly don't remember the wording for Push if it allows a shield to be used or not, I think it is worded that as along as you can cast the mana properly and extend both hands, you can use it. I'll have to look at that more. I understand what Jim is saying with the use of Push. It can be very powerful. As a mage, I can seriously do some damage with a striking bolt, push, repeat combo. (Third level is even better... bolt/stagger, bolt/stagger, bolt/stagger, push for breathing room). The use of Witch is not quite as easy though, as even humans must go on a search and earn the use of Witch magic, so it does reduce it down a bit... but there is still the potential to combine them. As for Jim's view on Push being extra lethal, I see the potential but I disagree... to a point. We have a lot of players who use magic every week at practice and lots of people get pushed, but with the "rising" rule and the way combat flows, there has been very few instances where I felt the spell was broken. I am usually a favorite target for Push casters simply because I wear heavy armor every week, so I have a lot of experience with being pushed lol. I am not disregarding the potential of it like what Jim said, but I've had a lot of feedback in order to see how it plays out in combat. I am going to playtest a Flare or Stun spell for clerics as a defensive spell tonight at practice, so that may be a middle ground spell that clerics can use. Great discussion everyone!
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Post by ungrim123 on Feb 26, 2014 12:26:10 GMT -5
I think push is already used to much, and giving it to clerics just makes that more likely.
My experience with it in game is almost polar opposite from yours. I almost never see it used for protection, and every Mordok shaman I've seen has used it offensively. I'm assuming our experiences with it are different because of play styles.
I have no idea what the breakdown actually is for classes/players in the game, but let's say it's 20% mages and clerics and 30% for fighters and rogues. I think push is overused now, but only 20% of the game has it (minus witch magic) so it's not usually an issue. If divine gets it almost half the game will have it. Then I think it'll be an issue, especially if pvp ever becomes a major thing. Front line fighters would basically be pinballs at that point.
I would be perfectly ok with it if there was a limit on the spell besides mana. Like ya could only cast it 2/3/5 times in a hour, depending on lvl. I'd actually be fine with it for divine then. In that scenario at least the caster would need to ration it incase they had to cheese it. You'd also see mana bolt being used more then once a blue moon.
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Post by Jopper13 on Feb 26, 2014 14:45:10 GMT -5
I'm more in favor of a stun spell for clerics, like flare or something. And they are getting a new spell called sanctuary that can help them survive if they are in a bad spot.
Although I don't personally see the imbalance from allowing push be divine, I am more in favor of a different spell than allowing them to use Push.
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Post by stanrick on Feb 26, 2014 19:07:29 GMT -5
thank you for the clarification ryan, for the way I read the rules its say rage ignores all attacks. I read that as ignore push as well. "Rage Fighter – 10 exp When you are dealt a Mortal Wound, instead of collapsing to the ground, you may yell “RAGE” and fight on for 10 more seconds. You are required to yell and scream as you fight on, swinging at 1 attack per second and counting by the second. During this time, you ignore all attacks and all wounds you have suffered (even those inflicted before the rage) no longer impair you. After the time runs out, you collapse and are considered Dying. You are required to role play a bit of a temper or heightened aggression for your character; role playing cues that you can rage."
so dose this mean that push is not an attack?
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Post by stanrick on Feb 26, 2014 19:07:42 GMT -5
"Push – 1 mana • There is no physical representation for this spell. • The caster calls out “PUSH” and extends both palms towards their opponent, who must walk backwards 15 feet as if being pushed by a strong energy and then must be knocked down to the ground. Once they have fallen over, they may immediately get back up. • The maximum range of this spell is roughly 10 feet. This spell cannot be primed like the bolts, the caster must be stationary and use the spell right away."
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Post by stanrick on Feb 27, 2014 7:11:26 GMT -5
This is just an Idea, but what if we modify Push? Lets say we have a mage they Death Bolt a warrior, the mortal wound starts the 10 second rage, the warrior charges in and is pushed. They fly back the 15 feet and now have wasted half their rage get back up and will most likely not even get a hit in because by the time they are in range they are out of rage time. Now they are dying. That dose seem like the push is over powered. The way I had read it Rage ignored the push (yes I know that’s not the case) that means the Rage was over powered. What if we change the push, keep every thing the same but add one thing to it. If push is used on a player using Rage the Raging player take the 15 foot push and falls. Their rage is stopped and the player is mortally wounded. They cannot restart their rage. This equeals the two out rather nicely. Now I know you might be thinking “well if the warrior was 8 seconds into the rage the mage just stopped the rage and the warrior got to use most of their rage” yes that is true. It is a risk you take if you don’t push they would maybe get in one hit but are now dying. The way I have seen Push used its hard to hold a weapon or shield. What if we make it so that if you use Push you can’t hold anything in your hands? would that help keep the blance? With these small changes I think it would not brake the game if the devine players have push. Would any of this make sence?
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Post by ungrim123 on Feb 27, 2014 9:16:11 GMT -5
I think being pushed back the 15 feet but not having to fall down is simpler, and it doesn't negate someone's rage.
Assuming the current idea of going with a different spell then push for divine (rules update thread) goes through the empty hands thing would be nice, but not necessary by any means.
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