RULES: Version 1.4 to 1.5 Updates

[blueruby]

My feedback from playing with these mechanics over the past two weeks:

1. Enchanted Weapon: I really did like this effect quite a lot. It was powerful and made me more of a threat while using it, and made me keep my distance from the person with it unless I had a team committed to taking them down with me, essentially turning that player into a mini-boss. That being said, chipping away at that person, committing to a fight with them, or planning around their fighting style usually resulted in the death of the enchanted, which to me says that the item was not too overpowered in our system. I wholeheartedly agree that it needs to be a rare item, not one just happened across or found in every fighter's hands.

2. Pierce Revamp: I LOVED this mechanic. I have tried using Pierce a number of times in 1.4, and it never seemed to go well. Between a combination of ambiguity of whether or not the attack stuck, getting the drop on someone to hit with the ability, and trying to get close enough to attack with a coreless weapon, it was a pain and a half to try to use. This new ability felt like it was punishing to the target if it struck, and meant that I couldn't just get steamrolled by someone in 10 more points of armor than me, but wasn't instantly devastating to them and gave them a chance to react while still combat-effective.

3. Locational Armor: Personally, I really liked this mechanic despite it resulting in me dying a few times with all three points of armor left. I love the added layer of realism that you get with it, and I found myself shifting my stance to protect my exposed sections rather than trying to guard everything. That being said, the negative feedback we got on it was pretty telling, and I'm fine keeping armor pooled like before.

4. Arrow Damage Change: The first way we tried this out felt absolutely perfect to me. A hit and a stagger is a substantial amount of damage, more than can be done by any other physical weapon in the game in a single strike. The fact that it can be performed at long range just makes it that much more terrifying. However, as a dual-wielder I was much more free to roam around the field, knowing that even if I came across an archer that I would have a chance to escape with my life. One lucky shot wouldn't mean the difference between life or death, though it would put me in a bad situation. This change put archers on par power-wise with other support weapons: They were punishing and demanded your attention, but not to the exclusion of everything else on the field.

4.b. Pull Arrow Change: I liked this idea much more than the current rules as I didn't need to go talk to a healer or someone with first aid to fix up an arrow wound (despite having full hits and armor), I could just take it out myself. I didn't like it enough to advocate for it, though: It did nothing to slow the instant incapacitating effect of archery, still rendering nearly anyone combat-ineffective with a single attack that can be delivered with at least decent accuracy over range longer than any other effect in Last Hope. Yes, arrows could be blocked by shields or by magic, or by throwing on 40+ lbs of armor, but shields can be used against any melee weapon with the same effect (and therefore do not really strike me as an effective argument in this regard), magic is going to require a substantial investment of xp and the expenditure of an effectively limited resource, and that much armor is heavy, limits mobility and visibility, and is usually pretty damn expensive. Finally, I'm opposed to giving everyone Pull Arrow as an ability, even with an increased duration, because it's simply not realistic. Not everyone is going to be willing or able to stomach the pain or sensations of pushing and pulling and removing an arrow from their own flesh, especially when it causes them that much excruciating pain.

[destiny]

ON PIERCE:

the idea of using a small weapon to staight hit someones hits sounds solid and i have no arguements there, but i dont like the idea of splitting pierce into 2 abilities pierce and backstab. I would be more in favor changing the way pierce works but leaving the current backstab synergy(waylay pierce) in place, it doesnt seem to me that changing the mechanic but not the principle of the skill should change skill interactions. That being said if you do make it 2 skills i would recommend that give anyone who already had pierce the option of which of pierce or backstab it gets carried over as well as leaving the waylay synergy in place for backstab so that it still takes more exp to get the ability to wound someones torso

[Valk's Nut]

My opinion on the pull arrow change:

Reading Sadie's comment about not everyone being ablr to stomach the pain of pulling an arrow, what if we gave everyone the inherant ability to pull arrows from someone else? I would think a minute or two to pull an arrow from someone else to downgrade the severity would be somewhat realistic and drive cooperation and role play.

[Jopper13]

@paul: Wouldn't that be First Aid though?

[Archmage Vazra]

Direct to HP damage as a mechanic worries me, apart from adding confusion to the simple progression of hits, it would seem to devalue the cost, exp and trouble of wading around in heavy armor. Those armor points can be pretty hard earned. Not to mention, it opens characters up to really quick death if they're caught unexpectedly. Perhaps the pierce change could be balanced by making toughness and it's successive tiers more available as skills? (reducing the later tiers exp cost, easing class restrictions, etc...) That would alleviate at least part of my concerns.

[Jopper13]

1) Pierce
We are going to continue again with the playtest with pierce (small weapons only, announce pierce, hit to bypass armor). Last week was a bit crazy with the locational armor and the change to arrow rules, so going back to a more level combat environment and doing more Pierce playtesting is needed.
FEEDBACK: Again, the new Pierce mechanic seemed to work really well. It is not overpowered, but gives some fighters a special attack against armored opponents. I was fighting two opponents during one battle at practice and defending myself when I heard someone yell "Pierce!" behind me and before I could react, I took a short axe to the back. It was a *perfect* example of "getting the drop on someone" and landing a blow that bypasses armor. I know there is concern with having to track multiple damage pools... but our system has that already with various degrees of protection and requiring a wound up, announced, and clean landing attack to do so has been very easy to track in combat. Feedback from people have been to make the current Pierce mechanic be this new system but then turn the old "back stab" style pierce mechanic into either a new skill or just something you can do with Waylay. Unsure how to balance out yet.

2) Rocks
We are going to officially playtest Rocks! We have dabbled in this before, but rocks would be a special thrown weapon that can *only* target the head, where most weapons cannot target the head. Rocks would be coreless, open-cell foam, with a size requirement (minimum size) so they are light and squishy. Hitting someone in the unprotected head would either A) Do 1 point of damage or B) Stun for 10 seconds
FEEDBACK: This was the first real try with rocks and honestly, I loved them. They really added a different dynamic to the fight as people would have to pay attention to something hitting their head. We took a vote and everyone was in favor of a rock doing a stun instead of a point of damage. I thought fights would turn into stalemates with people hucking rocks, but honestly it didn't. They were more opportunistic and only lucky shots would land and stun someone. It felt like a nice add-on to combat, made me feel even better about wearing a helmet, and forced people to think about covering their heads a bit more. I like it. I am in favor of seeing this added in. Like Pilum, this is a bit more involved combat mechanic but is relatively simple and easy to add in and track.

3) New Arcane Magic Ideas
There are 3 small unique "tricks" for Arcane magic that I want to try out, none of which have a huge impact on the game.
1) Versatile magic - This allows you to prime a striking bolt in your off-hand when casting other bolts. For example, you can put a striking bolt in your offhand while priming a Shatter Bolt in the other.
2) Combat Magic - Increase the number of Striking bolts you can prime by +1.
3) Reclaim Bolt - When a bolt that is more than 1 mana (single striking bolts and stun bolts would not be applicable) is thrown and misses a target, you may instantly reclaim 1 point of mana as long as you have remained stationary. The idea is that you are reclaiming some of the dispersed unused mana from the bolt.
FEEDBACK: Mixed feedback. We had 2 mages trying to stress test these. Combat magic was never used (additional striking bolts), one mage used Versatile magic quite a bit (which was interesting), and both mages kept forgetting about Reclaim bolt so it wasn't used much. I think they have merit, but undecided at this time.

4) Replace Stagger with Knockback
We are toying with the idea of streamlining our combat rules and removing the "Stagger" effect altogether and turning instances of stagger into just the knockback ability. Stagger is where you must place one hand and one knee on the ground. In this trial, getting hit with a spell would do the effect and do a knockback and getting hit with a cleave attack for damage would do a knockback.
FEEDBACK: I personally like this idea as it streamlines combat effects, but people kept forgetting to do the knockback and staggered anyway but it seemed to playtest well. Damaging attacks knocked people out of combat more so than locking them into it... which I am actually in favor of. This does slightly nerf the damage potential of Improved and Greater Striking Bolt arcane spells because instead of locking down your target, you knock them back and potentially out of range of your following bolts.

[Archmage Vazra]

I felt like the rocks were a bit silly, and I'm worried about them stunning. A stun effect in my opinion means rocks potentially become the deadliest weapon in the game. Spells are limited by your reduced mobility, with a rock, you could charge in, taking a hit or two, throwing a rock at point blank range, then putting two arrows in the defenseless enemies torso. That might sound silly and gimmicky, but that's precisely the problem. And no, the rocks weren't over-utilized at practice, but there were only like 3 in circulation. I would suggest rocks deal a point of damage, require throwing weapons to use, and be held to a high decorum standard. Besides, if you're reigning rocks over your keep wall, you probably want it to do damage to the attackers. I just don't see much of a use for stun here outside gimmicks.

Replacing stagger with knock back is actually a pretty severe blow to mages using stun bolt and striking bolt. Practically speaking, the function of a stun bolt has always been to follow up with another spell, something made considerably more difficult if it sends them stumbling back behind their line. I'm not as adverse to knockback for other spells, maybe stun bolt could be an exception?

As for the magic skills, I liked them, but they need more testing before I can give much feedback.

[Jopper13]

Playtest for July 6th

1) Increased Flare (existing spell)
Range of spell will increase from 5 feet to 10 to match Push's distance (for who can be hit/targeted). We will also be assuming that spellcasters with prime spells hit with flare will fizzle their held spell. (Suffering knockback)
FEEDBACK: I personally really liked the change to this spell. It made Flare a bit more viable and it added a possible counter to Arcane mages with primed bolts. It made using Flare safer during fighting (5 feet to target is meleee weapon range). One divine cleric knocked 2 shatter bolts out of the hands of an incoming mage and I was able to witness it. However, the mage's team was not working together with the mage (there was no shield wall and there was no bodyguard moving up with the mage to take the Flare so I saw it as a lack of teamwork being punished by a countering spell. I think it worked awesome. This really does force mages to either "Play it safe and stay outside of Flare range in a fight and throw their bolts" or "Risk it and get closer to help increase the chance of the spell landing on a target because there may be Flares primed". I liked this balance... some mages prefer to throw bolts from a distance, knowing they can miss but knowing its safer for them and others like to wade up in a melee and get less than 10 feet away and try to make sure that point blank shot doesn't miss. Giving something that could punish a mage for getting that close (since all other attacks, including magic, are absorbed by Mage Armor) feels like a good balance to me. A good number of people at practice agreed but some did not, so it was not a unanimous playtest.

2) Dispel Bolt (new spell / skill)
Purple spell bolt, 3 mana. When thrown and hits a target, target loses any primed spells held and is drained of 10 mana.
FEEDBACK: While I personally loved this spell, I am not sure it playtested well, or at least there was too much going on to see it effectively. I did a few lives as a mage and wanted to go as a counter-magic mage. Two times I came up against enemy mages that had spells primed, so I used the Dispel Bolt and primed it, hoping to deter them. Both times they continued their approach and threw their spells, but I landed a bolt on them and dropped them of 10 of their mana. I really like the "Forcing action" effect of this spell. It reminds me of a primed spell forcing an enemy team to act faster than they intend to, increasing the margin of error. Spending mana on a spell and then seeing a counter-mage step forward it makes you think "Shit, I need to throw this because if I don't, I waste it and I need to get out of here because if I can't move, I can't dodge the spell if its thrown... and I don't want to lose 10 mana" and I think it may not directly counter magic, the *threat* of counter or mana drain is enough to help. This reminds me of the Missile Protection bonus of heavy armor; because the armor downgrades arrows to just damage instead of bypassing armor, most archers don't want to waste the shots and they just choose to shoot at other targets. The overall effect changes how people act and I think this has some serious potential... it is also not a "guaranteed counter" as it requires skill, accuracy, etc where as a passive skill or an aura is always on. Plus, I feel like giving mages a way to be an effective counter to their own magic is a good idea. One idea that popped up is to not make this Arcane based at all... we make it a skill. This means that Clerics could also take Dispel Bolt and Syndar Warriors and Rogues could take it without needing magic. Perhaps this is raw mana formed into a spell and it is volatile to magic and mana? I think the playtest was so-so for anything decisive; some people liked it and some people didn't.

3) Magic Resistance (Skill)
If taken, reduces stun bolt and ice bolt times by half, Push effect changes to 15 foot then stagger instead of 15 foot and knock down, and Death Bolt effect changes to Light wound instead of Mortal wound. However, all defensive auras and healing magic mana and times are also doubled. Must call "resist" when struck with applicable magic.
FEEDBACK: I loved this skill. I think it is a good idea for three reasons.
(1) We already have it in the game... in a way. We have "magical mumbo jumbo rituals" that beef up magic resistance circumstantially. For example, sometimes Mordok will do a ritual that makes them resist magic easier.  What fun would it be to have a single Death Bolt kill a Mordok Alpha or a Lich? It takes a lot of creative challenges and makes them a moot point.
(2) This is a game balancing thing mainly to stop Death Bolt... it is the *ONLY* ability/weapon/spell in the entire game that can one-shot enemies. Period. There is nothing in the game... save for injesting a poison or stepping on a REALLY bad trap... that can drop someone like that. This may be fun to drop someone in a fight... but our game is also based on collaborative role play; what fun is it for the person on the receiving end? Being killed in combat and show with arrows may not be fun for some, but it does draw out a bit of a "combat story" and allow for more participation from both sides. Death Bolt does not. It one-shots you and that's it.
(3) The Siphoning is happening in our game. Magic is dying... the mana stream is slowly depleting. Showing an increase of resistance to magic starts to show that off a bit more. Maybe in the past clerics could heal greivous wounds easily and mages could destroy columns of troops in a single blast... but the "potency" of magic is diminishing.
The other effects (reduce Stun, Reduce Ice Bolt, change push to stagger instead of Knockdown) seems to feel right to me. It helps YOU resist magic, but not your equipment, so Acid Bolt and Shatter bolt are still very much a real threat to you. Some people loves this skill and some did not; jury is still out on this one.

4) Pierce (Skill)
Same as previous weeks, I think Pierce is playtesting solid and a little bit more testing would be nice. Small weapon only, Wind up, announce pierce, if attack hits it bypasses armor.
FEEDBACK: Pierce playtested again very well. I am seeing a very solid change and combat mechanic that could be brought in. So far there has not been a serious concern; even in a combat heavy environment, Pierce has been opportunistic at best.

5) Pull Arrow (Skill)
Small change; you can pull from any location regardless of armor/padding worn. No other changes.
FEEDBACK: Was pretty well received. This will also help balance out Archery VS Dual Wielders/Cleavers that are lightly armored. Some players didn't even know that the "armor + padding" requirement to Pull Arrow from a torso was even a requirement. I think this helps clarify and simplify this skill and make it balanced.

6) Reactive Aura (Spell)
Purple bead aura, cast by arcane magic, 3-4 mana. Reacts to incoming magic by exploding energy to disperse magic effects. All incoming magic targeting the aura bearer is changed to "1 point of damage" regardless of it's original effect. Must call "resist" and then the applicable damage call (armor, hit, etc). Cannot be worn with any other auras.
UPDATE: I both liked and hated this one. I liked it because you had a very solid counter to magic at the expense of taking damage. I hated it because it made things really lethal for both magic users and their attackers. Standing there getting hit with magic will kill you quickly (as Push and Flare now damage you) so you need to act. Since there was no stagger effect you could bum rush a mage and tear their apart. It didn't quite have the effect I was hoping for. I think this has potential... but it should be like the old Spell Block aura we talked about or potentially make it a 1-2 spell absorbing aura that knocks you back when you get hit. Weaver auras would need to be looked at as well. I'm more in favor of the Dispel Bolt and Magic Resistance playtests for counter/resisting magic more so than this aura.

[Archmage Vazra]

I just spent an hour and 6 minutes writing a carefully worded argument against the addition of further countermeasures to magic... only to have Chrome crash, and I just can't bring myself to start over. So forgive me if this is a bit blunt and to the point.



Magic sucks in Last Hope. It takes years worth of practice, and exp to even be useful in the first place. You have no mobility, limited range, finite mana, are incredibly vunerable and most of the time you're not even going to land your spells. If it gets any worse, it's not going to be worth using at all, and myself and the Archons are going to feel pretty stupid having invested so much time and effort into it. I am baffled by the claim magic lacks countermeasures. Arrows, throwing weapons, skirmishers, obstructions, gentle breezes, moving even slightly. Just because some of these things are useful elsewhere, doesn't mean they aren't valid counters. Nobody claims shields aren't a counter to arrows just because you can also block other attacks. That's not even to mention the magic specific defenses such as weaver auras. Magic resistance and 10 foot spell interrupting flares are just overpowered, and they tip the balance from a carefully constructed rock-paper-scissors, to scissors-scissors-paper.

A 10 foot spell interrupting flare gives one divine caster, loosely paying attention, the ability to totally lock out Arcane Magic out of a fight. That's crazy. I've heard it suggested mages just throw from further away, but not only are spells agonizingly inaccurate, fighting in a shield wall, you need to get within that distance to clear your own allies anyways. When we playtest these things, we need to remember that practice is rarely an accurate representation of an actual event. Which brings me to magic resistance... This is painfully overpowered from the get-go, and doubling the cost of friendly spells is a laughable drawback. We cast these spells during downtime anyways, generally hours before the action even takes place. Okay, so I spend an extra 2 mana and 30 seconds casting protection, we have two hours to kill before the rest of Apoc opens anyways. Speaking as a cleric, who does a LOT of healing, I could not think of a price where this skill wouldn't be worth it, nor a point where it wouldn't just be needlessly stomping on an already underpowered magic system.

The spell counter aura I could maybe see working with a knockback, because it is a legitimate trade-off, but I'm still going to tooth and nail argue the necessity. If magic is so unstoppable, why are so few PCs bothering to fight with it? Why don't all these shield uses who claim it lacks effective counters make mages? Most events, the Archons are the only PCs to throw spells at all. You have no mobility as a mage. You pull out a spell and immediately become a pin cushion. You close the gap and people just move. Even if you make it into the very short effective range those spell bags are painfully easy to dodge. In the rare event you actually do land a spell, which is maybe one in five times for me, (and I'm generally considered a pretty good mage) you almost inevitably get torn to shreds by skirmishers in retaliation. All of this mind you, you can only realistically attempt with considerable infantry support. I often hear Pyrehills held up as evidence of magics impact on the game, but that was a single event, years ago, where we spent about 60 silver in mana potions in an ideal circumstance, and with pretty considerable infantry keeping the enemy at bay... did modest damage before getting overrun anyways. Those moments are also few and faaaaaaaaar between.

I support the changes through meditation, mostly on the grounds of plot and roleplay, and because I'm okay with seeing magic used less often, but it is maddening to hear this narrative of magic needing to be checked, when it is so easy to avoid, so easy to counter/punish and so difficult to use effectively.

[blueruby]

My feedback from the playtesting:

1.) INCREASED FLARE: Personally, I loved this addition. Making Flare a 10-foot range actually allowed me to use it from relative safety when I was working with my team, and made it viable to cast defensively if I was alone, stopping an attacker's momentum before I was within range of getting struck. When carefully planned and luck was on my side, I was able to use 1 mana to fizzle 6 mana worth of opposing spells, which seems like it could be overpowered. I would not be opposed to implementing this ruling if we limited the Flare spell to one charge per casting, possibly adding in additional levels of the spell similar to Striking Bolt. I felt like I was able to help my team by being the anti-mage cleric, but it forced me out of actually fighting to watch the mages closely and try to judge before they got in range whether it was worth the mana and the risk to try to fizzle their spell, because at a slow walk I would be a sitting duck for spells or weapons thrown my way while I was trying to cast, and couldn't just run around the field flaring at every mage who cast a spell.

2.) DISPEL BOLT: I had mixed feelings on this. I enjoy the concept and felt like the few times it was used, it worked very effectively. I don't know that 10 mana is the right amount to drain from a 3 mana spell, however; it seems like a little too much. That being said, I would love to get to see this more in practice before I give my official opinion on it.

3.) MAGIC RESISTANCE: Dear god, yes. Maybe the reducing Push is a bit much for such a skill, but something to work against Death Bolt and Ice Bolt specifically are very much needed, and Stun Bolt is just a nice added bonus (It was Shiloh's favorite spell for a reason!). As a cleric, I can tell you that I specifically told everyone on my team that if they took Magic Resistance for the scenario that I would neither heal nor protect them. It took too much mana and too much time to do. Even between combats during an event when I would have plenty of time to meditate to get that mana back, it is going to force me to essentially bench myself during the event because someone else took this skill. We've already been talking about slowing down mana regeneration: Having me spend more mana and regain it slower is a recipe for me not casting on those people. I would much rather find two other people, both of whom I can bless for the same time and cost. If someone else is a more generous cleric than I am, great. As Ryan said, it also fits in well with the story of the Siphoning and shows that magic is getting weaker on the whole, and some beings are beginning to train their bodies to better withstand its effects.

4.) PIERCE: Love it, I feel like I've already said my bit on this.

5.) PULL ARROW: Love the idea, brings bows a little more in balance with other support weapons than before. In the current rules, equipment and an expensive skill are both needed to be able to put yourself back in fighting form after as little as a lucky shot from a single arrow made you instantly combat ineffective. Didn't actually play with it: between Protections, dodging, and First Aid, I never had a need.

6.) REACTIVE AURA: Didn't use this one at all, either. I know it kept me from healing a fighter to give him hits back, but I didn't really see any of my opponents running around with them on to try to take advantage of the effect.

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Drake, to respond with my opinion AS A PLAYER to your comments:

Magic sucks in Last Hope. It takes years worth of practice, and exp to even be useful in the first place.

You and I must have VERY different ideas of "useful". A mage standing at the ready, even a 1st level one, can dissuade even an experienced fighter from charging in and attacking them because of spells like Push and Stun Bolt. Those won't kill the fighter, sure, but it gives the mage some much needed time to escape or prepare other defenses. Sure two people charging a mage renders that pretty ineffective (unless the mage is 3rd level), but the same can be said for archers, for spearmen, for cleavers, even for shields.

You have no mobility, limited range, finite mana, are incredibly vunerable and most of the time you're not even going to land your spells.

Limited mobility and range I will grant you. Finite mana is important in a low fantasy setting. You're going to be vulnerable if you fight alone (just like any support fighter. Ask Ryan about his 9-foot spear). Not every attack hits. Hell, MOST attacks don't hit, regardless of your fighting style: No matter who I'm fighting, I may land 1 in 10 shots I throw. True I don't have to spend mana to do so, but I also have to worry about my opponent's hits, armor, and shield to chew through while putting myself within range of their weapon as well. Magic is the only effect in game that takes the advantages many fighters practice with and have trained and paid for, and turns it into a HUGE disadvantage: Heavy armor, big shields, and billowy clothing like cloaks and skirts are all wonderful for enduring attacks and blocking or catching weapons including arrows, but instantly make you a target for a mage because you will be slower, are presenting a larger target, and don't have direct control over each movement of each piece of equipment you are wearing. Couple that with the fact that you're basically throwing single-target grenades out there (capable of instantly removing me from a fight and making the game less enjoyable for me to play, or instantly melting up to 18 points of armor which could take MONTHS of saving in-game to fix), and I don't see a problem with spells missing fairly regularly.

I am baffled by the claim magic lacks countermeasures.
Arrows, throwing weapons, skirmishers, obstructions, gentle breezes, moving even slightly.

Mage Armor, arguably less reliable and accurate than spell bolts, Push, universal problem, calling bull shit, and plot/balancing reasons, in that order.

A 10 foot spell interrupting flare gives one divine caster, loosely paying attention, the ability to totally lock out Arcane Magic out of a fight.

I can very much vouch for the fact that this is not the case. I had to focus on the mage in front of me and make sure I was positioned physically to be able to counter their spells so that my shield wall wouldn't be immediately rendered ineffective. I could not "totally lock out Arcane Magic" by "loosely paying attention". I could ignore the rest of combat around me to focus on a single mage to probably keep them from destroying my team.

I've heard it suggested mages just throw from further away, but not only are spells agonizingly inaccurate, fighting in a shield wall, you need to get within that distance to clear your own allies anyways.

Depends on who you are fighting against. Another shield wall? Chances are they will be close enough to hit with a spell, and the lack of mobility you talk about as a mage is amplified when you're standing shoulder to shoulder in a line with big ol' "wooden" targets (Shields) presented to the enemy. Your options for dodging are EXTREMELY limited, so chances are you are just going to take the spell. Fighting skirmishers? You wouldn't fare any better on your own as far as accuracy goes, but at least now you have a wall of shields and fighters between you and them, allowing you to take some chances without worrying about getting run down.

Which brings me to magic resistance... This is painfully overpowered from the get-go, and doubling the cost of friendly spells is a laughable drawback. We cast these spells during downtime anyways, generally hours before the action even takes place. Okay, so I spend an extra 2 mana and 30 seconds casting protection, we have two hours to kill before the rest of Apoc opens anyways. Speaking as a cleric, who does a LOT of healing, I could not think of a price where this skill wouldn't be worth it, nor a point where it wouldn't just be needlessly stomping on an already underpowered magic system.

For a caster with access to a large pool of mana, other casters willing and able to transfer mana, and numerous mana potions, you're right: twice the mana cost isn't a huge deal. To the new player with Divine 1 and nothing else, not being able to cast one of their spells on someone who is Dying to save their life is a pretty big deal. Especially considering that we are looking at reducing mana regeneration, a cleric's most commonly used spell now takes a full level of magic's mana to cast and could bench them for 10-20 minutes per casting to regain that mana. Start looking at bigger spells like Divine Intervention and we're talking about a 10 mana spell to downgrade a Mortal wound to a Light: 30-40 minutes just to allow another player to play the game. Revive, a 1st level spell, now takes 6 mana (20-30 minutes) to keep another player from Dying and losing their PC. That's a lot of down time. A lot of players already dislike Meditation for being uninteresting and boring while other people are role playing or fighting or having fun. Now we're looking at at least doubling that boring downtime for casters if they decide to protect another player before going in to a fight. How many fewer protections are we going to see? How many times have Protections kept people alive, either from having an extra hit or from being able to soak an arrow? Maybe we just play clerics differently, but I would rather spend my two hours before a big battle prepping and then role playing, actively participating in the game I chose to attend rather than sitting off on the sidelines so I can be effective again.

The spell counter aura I could maybe see working with a knockback, because it is a legitimate trade-off, but I'm still going to tooth and nail argue the necessity
.

I don't disagree with you on this one. Still not sure how I feel about that aura, but I would imagine a knockback would make me feel better about it and would make more sense mechanically and thematically.

If magic is so unstoppable, why are so few PCs bothering to fight with it? Why don't all these shield uses who claim it lacks effective counters make mages? Most events, the Archons are the only PCs to throw spells at all.

Maybe because people don't want to? I like fighting in melee. It's competitive, it's physical, and it's fun. That's why I very rarely putz around with archery these days, and have stopped playing a mage as a PC. If everyone wanted to be the most powerful being on Mardrun or have the biggest and best abilities, then yes, we would probably see more mages. That's not the story that everyone wants to tell, though. The Archons have made a conscious decision to be casters and to throw spells, and that's fine. When it is no longer fine, though, is when it becomes clear that an ability is severely detrimental to a large number of players' ability and willingness to play the game.

You have no mobility as a mage. You pull out a spell and immediately become a pin cushion. You close the gap and people just move. Even if you make it into the very short effective range those spell bags are painfully easy to dodge. In the rare event you actually do land a spell, which is maybe one in five times for me, (and I'm generally considered a pretty good mage) you almost inevitably get torn to shreds by skirmishers in retaliation. All of this mind you, you can only realistically attempt with considerable infantry support.

You have limited mobility as a mage because you are trying to control and carry basically a bomb in your hand while combat is going on all around you. Being able to cast on the run, or charge an opponent and land a spell would be broken as hell, and I think you know that. You become a target for archers right away because they can hit you from outside of your range and you pose a massive threat to the survival of their team. How often do you get charged by a line fighter with a spell primed? I'm guessing not nearly as often as an archer would; archers don't get to ignore shields like mages do. Spells may be easy to dodge, they may be hard to throw. Those are both okay. If they were perfectly accurate, the ability for one mage to completely destroy (or at least effectively disrupt) an entire shield wall would be pretty common. This is a low fantasy system, after all. Besides, I'm willing to wager that you're underestimating your accuracy with those spell balls, unless I'm just getting lucky and seeing all the shots you make. As far as infantry support, I don't really see that as being the case. You are perfectly capable as a mage of getting close to an enemy to hit with a spell or scare them off. It's far safer behind a shield wall, but the same can be said for literally anything in our game.


Long story short, magic as it stands right now can very quickly negate years of training, hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars of purchases by a player, and any hope of being able to tell a story through combat in an instant. That flies in the face of what Last Hope wants to be, and our current rules have shown us just how far from that goal we have gotten. Magic is going to be reined in with this version of the rules, that much I can promise you. I would love to hear some ideas from you as to how we can still keep magic interesting to play while being less powerful on the battlefield. You're a veteran player and a very experienced mage, and would surely have some wonderful insight on the topic.

[Archmage Vazra]

I dropped 1500 dollars recently on a custom suit of armor and gambeson. I did this knowing full well I'll be just as vunverable to acid bolt as anybody else. I don't feel sorry for anyone on the recieving end. I'm not going to complain if my armor gets melted because I recognize Last Hope is a game of strengths and weaknesses, and I know from personal experiance how hard it is to actually deliver a spell like that.

I also bought a crossbow, to shoot this acid bolt wielding mage in the guts before he reaches me. He'll probably think the arrows are really powerful, even OP, I sure do, but I understand it's a rock paper scissors dynamic, and we're all a little bias against our vunerabilities, so I don't complain.

Now, you've asked for my feedback and I've given it in good faith. I feel the meditation changes are suffiecent and further changes are too far. Scrolling back through the thread, I don't see many on the player side in disagreement. Do with that what you will, but do not chastize me for an opinion you asked to hear.

[blueruby]

In fairness, scrolling back through the conversation, I don't see many on the player side in agreement, either. There seem to be very few people involved in the conversation, especially when it is concerning magic.

The reason we are toning down magic is because it deals damage unrivaled by anything else in our system. Faster than can possibly be matched (the potential for 18 damage in an instant is ridiculous, especially for 4 Mana). I'm glad you're okay with taking that kind of damage. Not everyone is.

This might come off as snarky, but I would imagine that acid bolt-Wielding make is going to think "mage armor" before he thinks that arrows are overpowered.

I'm not trying to chastise you for your opinion. I am expressing my own. From what I've seen of this conversation and from hearing feedback at practice is that many of our players like the direction we are moving with these changes, as do the staff. There are some ideas that don't work, to be sure, but I feel like you (and almost exclusively you) have been fighting tooth and nail to not change arcane magic and to deny that it is overpowered.

[Archmage Vazra]

I would much rather take any amount of armor damage rather then take a wound, that's why I'm wearing armor lol. We have plenty of devastating effects in the game, and magic is not the worst amongst them. Arrows wound instantly and are much harder to defend against. Waylay is effectively an instant kill, and in my opinion harder to defend against. I've never suffered a third level spell in game, even as an NPC, because they're really easy to avoid, but I have been killed by Waylay and my fair share of arrows. Again though, we have powerful effects, it makes things fun, so I don't complain. (Decker didn't have mage armor and he survived three third level mages attempt to death bolt him just fine)

If a change must go through, the reactive aura at least seems fair, assuming it includes a knockback. At least the reactive aura has a real price, and allows for the mage counter strategies, which is really important for the meta. Though, placing the aura should require a weaver, as to not make the trade and it's existing auras obsolete.

I stand by that magic resistance and flare modifications are grossly OP, I dont really have an opinion on the counterspell yet, needs more testing.

[Aifric Camden]

reading over these ideas, i'd just like to point out that having Flare fizzle primed spells seems very overpowered, considering you can already walk around with Flare primed. its already very dangerous to try throwing spells in a pitched battle (think about it, how often do you see someone try this at practice? very rarely, and even more rarely do they actually hit someone. even drake and ben typically switch to melee weapons).

furthermore, it doesn't really make sense to me, to be honest, because in a setting where Flare were such a hard counterspell, you'd imagine that mages would have developed some way to throw spells from further away by now. especially considering that Flare is only a 1st level spell; literally every cleric has it.

[Archmage Vazra]

Death-Bolt:

Death-Bolt is not a very good spell. It's extremely costly, unwieldy, and generally just not worth the trouble. I have tried dozens of time to catch Ryan with one, and to my knowledge have only ever succeeded once, in years of trying. (Against Khulgar Greytide, who raged, and was fine 20 minutes later)

It is however, really fun and cool. That is 100% of the reason I use it as frequently as I do. Bumping it down to wounds, kinda just spoils that fun a bit... It loses that narrative impact which makes it interesting to use (Aside from balancing, this is part of my issue with Magic Resistance). I'm not really sure who's rallying to have it changed. I've only ever heard it discussed when prompted at practice. There's apparently not enough players who feel strongly enough about it to post here, which hardly fits this narrative of people getting frustrated and leaving over it. Hell, to my knowledge, there's only ever been one instance of a PC using it against another PC successfully, that was when Vazra hit Al-Haddad, and those were extreme circumstances. Seriously, if it was that good, you'd think we'd see it used more often?

It is however, the only spell more directly damaging then striking bolt. Perhaps, rather then change the spell, you could change the meta that encourages people to use it. Awhile back, "Piercing Bolt" was pitched. I am betting, if introduced, with no changes to deathbolt, it would take over as the go-to spell whena mage wants a bit more "oomph" then a point of damage. Heck, I'd be less horrified by the countermagic proposition if I had a better in-between damage spell.

Mana Reserve/Toughness Restrictions: I'm really not sure what problem this is intended to fix? Last Hope was designed with a deliberately low ability cap, to prevent the margin between new and veteran players from ever growing too great. This is supplemented with the cumulative exp penalty, which quickly puts more powerful characters on a grinding plateau. This works really well. It is effective enough, that I would rather roll up a second character, then experiment with different play styles on my existing. Limiting "Body skills" only really serves to shoehorn players into tired tropes. I am also concerned with how this will interact with direct to hit points abilities like the proposed pierce changes.

Armor Changes: I am fully supportive on tighter restrictions on how many points minimal coverage armor provides, but would like to voice concern regarding missile protection. The issue at hand in my opinion is so called "Roller-blading" and other min/max practices. Requiring gauntlets, knee protection and/or sabotons for protection from arrows on the other hand... seems rather cruel, especially considering the price of such items.