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Post by ungrim123 on Mar 5, 2014 9:15:31 GMT -5
When has bless weapons ever been used to combat corruption?
Heck, at the event where that skull was an issue and Aedan got his extra hp I interacted with the skull using a blessed weapon. As far as I was able to tell it didn't help one bit.
If the blessed weapon is supposed to be used against corruption ad undead the spell needs rewording, and perhaps a name change to "Bless Item". That way if another idol is found we could bless a bag to carry it more safely or something.
Ritual magic could use some codifying simple to make sure players know, generally at least, what it can used for. Even thinking to use something like that when the pcs don't have sufficient context is hard to do.
Why wouldn't my idea on having to alternating between divine and mundane healing work?
It keeps revolving door combats from happening and keeps first aid relevant and makes divine healing useful without dumping a huge amount of xp into it.
Fair enough on the divine thing, so this'll be my last word on it.
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Post by Jopper13 on Mar 5, 2014 9:27:42 GMT -5
Bless Weapon isn't a mechanic that just ANY player can use to fight corruption, but it is a spell used DURING the fighting of corruption. For example, Aeden having a blessed weapon and trying to smash the idol might not do anything... but there may be a ritual that requires the blessing of a weapon. It is a more passive circumstantial use of the spell. We have destroyed items in OW and NW using this system, but it requires more magic than just simply "blessing a weapon"
There is going to be some codified Ritual magic, which is actually going to be an important part of taking the Lore skill focusing on Ritual magic. This will give PCs access to things, possibly some basic rituals.
The idea you have between alternating Divine and Mundane healing has some merit and is on my list.
And I don't mean to shut down the discussion, I am just afraid of losing sight of the entire aspects of the game. Perhaps we can do these rounds of changes for 1.3 and then if there are still some balancing issues, we can fix them up in 1.4? I dunno. I guess I could just let everyone discuss whatever they wanted here so things that people wish to discuss are not suppressed. I'll just make sure to sift through it later.
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Post by Jopper13 on Mar 5, 2014 14:01:08 GMT -5
Here are a couple more ideas floating around.
Downtime Healing Shana had a good idea to add this into the rulebook under the wound system.
Divine Mend I have been toying with allowing Divine casters the ability to mend armor and shields, similar to the Mend skill. It would work the same way as our new Divine Aid/Close Wound idea... spend mana, tie on a ribbon, mend it back to half.
Purify Blood Wording for this will most likely get updated again... diseases and poisons will hve a Purify Rating, this is the required amount of mana to be spent through Purify Blood to cure the condition.
New Game Rules We probably will have a "Let me clarify" clause that is in the rules stating that an NPC or Herald stating "Let me clarify..." and then explaining something is an in-game way to state an out of game mechanic and that the information is truthful. Another update will be some wording for the "safe movement" clause, basically stating that knock back and push spells allow players to divert their course to a safer one if moving in the original direction could be dangerous as long as it is role played effectively. For example, if a Push spell were to send you sprawling into a barbed wire fence, you could divert your direction to avoid the fence but still role play the effect and fly the distance you need to. The last one will be a clause in the rulebook similar to the media coverage consent which will cover consent to touch. We are NOT a larp that requires permission to touch, as a certain amount of physical contact with another player is acceptable. This clause will state that signing the waivers, the contract, and the contract means you consent to this (which will involve appropriate and lighter touching of limbs, etc... with permission being needed for higher levels of touch). This clause sounds scarier than it is, because it doesn't change what we are currently doing it just makes players aware of it.
Recall (Arcane) and Sanctuary (Divine) These spells will have a modified clause that allow a 2nd person to be affected, doubling mana costs and any RP effects from it. For example, if the caster spends 8 mana instead of 4, has a blue rag for each traveler, and then role plays 30 minutes of fatigue and disorientation when arriving (with the passenger doing it for the normal 15 minutes) then a second person can be taken. Sanctuary will probably have a clause added that a wounded or dying ally can be protected by sanctuary as well as the caster... but not sure how to balance it yet or what the requirements would be (Why does the other person have to be mortally wounded or dying? Why can't the other person be just fine and protected? Etc)
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Post by Jopper13 on Mar 6, 2014 15:47:48 GMT -5
Last night we play tested some more divine magic things. Here is my initial feedback.
Flare (Spell) We altered this spell and I personally LOVED the change. There is a lot of debate about giving Push to clerics. The reason for it is that clerics can use it to blast an opponent away and use it as a defensive spell. When I created Push, I had every intention of it being an offensive spell... with mages ripping apart groups and blasting warriors out of shield lines and changing the dynamic of a fight. Allowing a cleric to cast a Stun ability (the target staggers around for 10 seconds) was actually more lethal than push, because attackers could line up an attack and get a free hit on the stunned opponent. We tried something new... and it worked great! We tried a variation to Flare that was 1 mana and allowed the cleric to "hold" two charges of Flare (one in each hand). When an opponent came within 5-10 feet of the caster, they could extend their hand out like they were throwing the spell at them and announce "Flare". The target had to take a KNOCKBACK affect (stumble back 5 feet... just like when you parry a cleaving attacking) and that was it. No damage, no stagger, etc. It worked out really well because it was truly defensive or "slightly gap opening" instead of a major spell affect. The divine caster could prime them in their hands and walk with them, allowing them to keep people back or open up some holes to allow movement. Clerics could work together to push back a line of attackers to get to wounded too, but would drain mana quickly. I am very much in favor of adding this spell as the defensive spell for clerics and keeping push for arcane only.
Sanctuary (Spell) The mechanic seems balanced but we haven't been able to actually need to use it. Yesterday at practice we did Sanctuary as a final ritual thing, but it wasn't actually used in the "Oh crap I am going to die, I will cast Sanctuary" format. It actually leads into some ritual magic ideas... similar to blessing tools and weapons (Bless Weapon) or creating a divine aura to perform a ritual in (Divine Barrier).
Regenerate (Spell) After discussing this in detail, I think everyone at practice and everyone who was play testing this agreed that the 3 mana per wound level and needed the wound to be treated is an acceptable mana and mechanic requirement for this spell. Any cheaper/faster/easier and it is overpowered, as its main use is for getting people patched up after a fight and not trying to get them healer to jump back into the fight. It may seem pricey, but especially with the other changes and updates to divine magic along with the Divine First Aid, this update to Regenerate balances out quite well.
Purity of the Game (Overall idea) With us constantly talking about the 1.3 changes, I have been approached by a handful of people that are worried about making too many changes. Part of the awesomeness of Last Hope is that is a game that is simple and people can learn it quickly and play the game, not be worried about overly complex mechanics, immense lists of spells that are impossible to remember, or drastic changes to the game. The simpleness and purity of our LARP is one of our best assets, so making too many changes does endanger that core principle. That is something I need to keep in mind as well, because I don't want to add so many new things to the game that we lose our low-fantasy feel and more simplistic rule set. If you have a great idea on new spells or changes and we don't use it or we keep mana costs high so players cannot cast tons of magic, it may not be about class/spell/skill/combat effectiveness balancing but it may just be toned down purely to fit the setting and feel of our game. My job is to sort through it all and try to find a middle ground... but I wanted everyone to keep that in mind as we move forward.
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Post by Jopper13 on Mar 6, 2014 15:48:53 GMT -5
Also, I wanted to let everyone know that the player community has a deadline of March 15th to send in ideas or add to this discussion... the heralds are having a meeting on the 16th to finalize these changes and then the new 1.3 rules will be available at the March 22nd combat event (and hopefully a little bit before that so players can read up on it).
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Post by singkofer on Mar 6, 2014 16:22:36 GMT -5
I honestly think we should up the hit points for pc to 3 instead of lowering it.
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blueruby
Order of Starkhaven
Plot Staff
Captain Anne Cash
Posts: 924
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Post by blueruby on Mar 6, 2014 16:33:28 GMT -5
Personally, I'm going to disagree on that part. I feel like the hits are just fine where they are now. One of the big points of Last Hope is the idea of actions having consequences, and the permanence of character death. If I remember correctly, so far in this game we have had one player die (for plot reasons, not because they were beaten in combat), and one other player use a Last Hope when he held off a group of Mordok to allow the rest of the group to escape. We play in a very gritty, dangerous world, and having the threat of character death be a very real thing is a large part of Last Hope's overall feeling. While I don't think lowering the number of hits players have is the right way to go (as characters would die more often, and result in a few people being upset that the PC they've spent large amounts of time and money on is now dead), but raising them just removes us from the threat of death by another step, which I feel is getting away from the idea that the PCs may be veterans or slightly better equipped to deal with danger than NPCs, but they are not gods of war. Honestly, the fact that we haven't really killed many people in two and a half years of this game, with all the combat events that happen, the battles with the Mordok, and the Civil War raging right next door is shocking.
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Post by stanrick on Mar 7, 2014 0:05:40 GMT -5
No the hit points are fine, people are really careful not to die. Yes the pirates walked out of the swamp just fine but in reality that was because the monster players where occupied. People got messed up that event. And at combat events. The joke is stanrick almost died, but I also played it up a lot and raged so as far as wounds I was better off the some other players. I think the HP is at a nice place.
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Post by CaptainM on Mar 7, 2014 13:23:04 GMT -5
We've playtested a lot of the ideas for mechanics at practice and I have to say I am a fan so far. I do actulally enjoy the finger count method for casting protect when I had it placed on me. It added this nice level of tension and made me think more about useing it as just a popable sheild. Some of the items higher up on my list are some of the more RP intensive skills, I would love to see more and more trade manuals and I love the idea of specializing rescources and Lore especially if you could potentially stack them. In rergards to the HP drop, I like them where they sit now but I would have no real issue with dropping the starting points down one but I would say add in at least one more level of toughness so players can pay for that point back. As far as devine magic goes, I have enjoyed the new spells we have play tested, although I never use devine magic, but going up against a cleric has been good. It's seemed pretty balanced with how much mana per spell.
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Post by salguod720 on Mar 9, 2014 0:10:12 GMT -5
I know I haven't been around much but after reading through everything i have to say that i dont like the idea of lowering hp. The reason behind that is a lot of times ive been in a situation and almost died from it. During the events when im not a footman, i have to say that i have those "Oh dang" moments when i almost die. Also playing a footman with the same amount of hp with the pcs makes it a bit more even. So keeping the hp where its at still gives the game the spice of "oh i dont want to die moments" along with the "i am so glad i have that additional health". Although there is a devils advocate to that. New players starting out really dont stand a chance against some of the veterens who have been playing for a while and have all the armor and health. Its quite intimidating, but once they get up to that level they feel that they stand a chance. So, what im saying is leave the hp mechanic alone.
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Post by stanrick on Mar 9, 2014 1:10:37 GMT -5
But you don't have a lot of PvP going on in the game. Im not saying it cant or wont happen but it is not the main focus of the game. so a Vet having more HP dosen't hurt anything.
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Post by mcerysjenks on Mar 9, 2014 13:41:44 GMT -5
Questions on the changes to Lore and Resources:
Is the XP cost of Resources also going to get lowered when you narrow its scope/specialize it?
Will PCs who already have Lore (and/or Resources, if the answer to above question is "yes") get an XP refund when the rules update goes through?
Just how specific do Lore specializations need to be? For instance, could a character take something like "Lore: Anthropologist" and basically have access to the wiki information of all available cultures (with possible gaps for RP reasons), or would she have to take three separate versions of Lore (Lore: Ulven Cultures, Lore: Syndar Cultures, Lore: Human Cultures)? Or, to play the typical Coywolf skillset, would I need to take Lore: Woodland Survival (eg, "this root/berry/moss is edible!") AND Lore: Terrain/Geology (eg, "cut down too many trees at the bottom of the mountain, and in a couple of years a landslide will start at the top of the mountain"), or could both be covered under Lore: Woodscraft or something like that? These are Very Important Questions to me, since I'm playing the Combat Librarian... overall, I approve of more specific Lore/Resources skills, but I'm pretty sure that even with fairly broad specializations, Ylsa is going to need at least three versions of the Lore skill (Anthropologist, Woodscraft, Mordok), and maybe two versions of Resources (Gather Information, and something like Friend in Need - aka, a reputation for helping others when they need it and asking nothing in return, resulting in major discounts on between-game healing/repairs, but with a risk that I may lose silver between events when completely healthy because I was "helping someone else").
Also, I had an interesting thought... would it be possible for someone who doesn't have any magic ability to take Lore: Ritual Magic? Allowing her to do things like: talk a spellcaster WITHOUT that Lore through performing a ritual, identify rituals being performed by other players or NPCs, or maybe take part in rituals that don't require her to spend mana (I'm thinking like the divination ritual Selena used at the Dirge Swamp expedition, where she did the mojo, but needed four random casters to stand at compass points while she did it).
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Post by Jopper13 on Mar 9, 2014 14:34:32 GMT -5
After some thought and discussion, I am keeping the starting hits at 2.
Cerys,
Yes, Resources will be scaled appropriately (most likely more specific but cheaper in EXP cost)
Yes, PCs with Lore will get a refund... any changes to any skills will get changed across the board for all PCs accordingly.
We are still trying to narrow down the scale and scope of the new Lore skill. It will probably require something like "Ulven cultures, Syndar cultures, and Human Cultures" instead of something like Anthropologist simply because there is such a distinction between them. We are possibly going to come up with a list of Lore skills and just let players choose them, so we know exactly what parameters we are working with. PCs who focus on knowledge will generate a lot of cumulative exp costs (Lore1: 0 exp, Lore2: 0+1 exp, Lore3: 0+2 exp, etc) so there has to be some balancing in it. If you have ideas, please feel free to post them.
I like those ideas for resources... I'm going to probably do the same (Henchman for guards, Gather Information for info, Aid similar stuff to your friend in need idea, Trade Goods for buying stuff, etc)
Yes, definitely on the Lore: Ritual Magic idea. Lore represents the ability to understand and know things, not necessarily the ability to do so. A character could have studied texts and books and know the equations/flow/languages/runes/design of ritual magic even if they do not possess magic themsleves. This could probably give them the ability to assist in rituals.
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Post by stanrick on Mar 9, 2014 16:34:32 GMT -5
I am guessing your going to keep the ulven HP at 3 for a starting point?
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Post by mcerysjenks on Mar 9, 2014 18:21:48 GMT -5
Damn... oh, well, with the 5xp Lore refund (and I'm guessing another 5xp for a Resources refund?), I have around 30xp to spend yet, so I should be able to afford *most* of the stuff I need, I'll just have to be a little calculating instead of going "Wheee! Lore ALL the things!" And really this will only be a problem for the, like, TWO players that are working the current Lore skill for all it's worth... just one of them is ME. Poor me. Okay, so if you're trying to just populate a list rather than deal with a bunch of custom Lore requests (you could probably also do "Lorebook" handouts for each, like you do for trade manuals, which could be handy), what's on your list so far? Probably fair to assume cultural Lore for Ulven, Human, and Syndar, although that begs the question: How in-depth can your knowledge as a character be before you're basically required to take Lore? 'Cause I'd assume that most Ulven characters, especially the well-traveled adventurers that are most of our PCs, would know enough about variations within Ulven culture to avoid most cultural misunderstandings. This may be too complicated to be practical, but maybe do a sort of BOGO deal - buy Lore for another race's culture, get the Lore of your own culture? The in-game assumption being that a character who has studied a different group of cultures well enough to have Lore on them would know just as much about their own cultures... That may make it a little bit easier on anthro-style Lore users (especially since the "academic" type character fits very well with a spellcaster type, which can be pretty high XP cost in their own right), so they don't have to pay the XP cost for all three, but wouldn't really unbalance the game since I imagine Cultural Lore would be relatively low-utility. Let's see, then there's Ritual Magic, I assume there's a Mordok Lore, you mentioned Undead... You also mentioned the possibility of Warfare Lore, which sounds great, but I'm a bit uncertain how it would work... For one, it sounds a little less like a Lore branch and more like a faction perk, but my real concern is that it's a case of applying an XP value to a RL skill that a player may or may not have - that works okay for fighting, but I'm a little leery of doing the same for academic/leadership skills - in my opinion, knowledge of warfare would be better left to roleplay rather turned into a buyable skill. I'd love to see a more "practical" sort of Lore application, too. I mentioned Woodscraft as an option earlier... my idea would be that there would be two ways it affects gameplay: One being a between-game effect, reducing the likelihood getting lost or injured in unfamiliar territory (see again: dirge swamp expedition), the other being the ability to tell when something is Wrong With Nature - spotting wilted/damaged plants, tainted water... basically, it would be a non-magic proximity warning for corruption sites and NPC-planted traps. Not sure whether the second part would be practical from a mechanic standpoint, though, it may be a bit overpowered, and relies a LOT on Heralds being able to do sneaky info-dumps. :/ Oh! Just thought of something: how does the Lore restructure affect the "translation" side of Lore-having? Would having the skill to translate something like the Syndar Journal, etc. still be part of the standard Lore package, or would it be a specific field?
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